Torsion wave defense systems and energy weapons

[michaelsuave]

So I was re-reading the subjugation series as I waited for another chapter from fel, and came up with a thought that I wanted to bounce off you people (and fel) to see if its plausible. So in the first book, the describe the karinne battleships as having a torsion wave defense against fighters and missles, etc and that you can't use energy weapons through the torsion wave because it distorts the beam. I was wondering if there would be a way of using the torsion wave as a defense against beam or energy weapons such that you could redirect any incoming energy beams around the ship or even back at the shooter? I'm not too sure of the science behind the tortion wave defense.

A follow-up question would be can a round from a large railgun be successfully and accurately launched through a torsion wave to strike ships outside of the wave or entering the wave?

Secondary follow-up question, could you use the tortion wave devices as mines to seed an area with a large torsion field and destroy any ships in the area?

Just thoughts, would love to get some feedback from some people who have picked apart this technology more than I have.

[expedient]

I suggested a more specific version of this in http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1123

Speaking of which, could torsion guns be defended against with an adaptation of the torsion shockwave weapons? A kind of active armor, like modern tanks use explosives on their skins to disrupt the effectiveness of shells hitting them.

I think there would be a problem with railguns as matter at very high velocity begins to behave more like other energy. (Nevermind these railguns probably don't work at relativistic velocities.)

Secondary follow-up question, could you use the tortion wave devices as mines to seed an area with a large torsion field and destroy any ships in the area?

These are already being used; from Insurrection chapter 4:

That was the shock they'd get after the mines hit them. The arc of closest entry into normal space from the planet was seeded with mines, as was the approach to the planet. They only had about two thousand of them, but those mines were actually more like missles, and they would lock on to any hostile ship, then explode just outside their shields. The mines weren’t conventional explosives, they were torsion mines, and those explosions would create a spatial shockwave that shields and armor could not stop, which would deal spatial damage to the ships.

[michaelsuave]

Thanks expedient, didn't remember reading about the type of mine that was used in the second book. If I'm reading your question right, your first question was in regard to railgun rounds or shells (maybe MPAC rounds/torpedoes) though, my primary question is to use the torsion wave as a diverter of energy weapons and whether that would work or not.

Is it possible to make a torsion wave more dense or at a higher frequency such that it actually reflects energy shots or diverts them around the ship?

[expedient]

No, above I was referring to defending against the Consortium's directed torsion beams, which work on a similar principle to the shockwave. The GRAF cannons also use a related technology. As to if they'd work on anything else, I've no idea.

The Karinne Teryon energy shields are already resistant to the Consortium dark matter cannons. And in http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1067 Fel confirms that Jason and Myleena are working on shield to deflect MPAC rounds by reinforcing the magnetic shell as per Tim's idea in Subjugation, with only limited success.

That would leave the Karinnes ship at a huge advantage until alternatives are found. Assuming that you aren't left with an either/or choice of defense.

[michaelsuave]

Interesting. Did we ever get an answer from fel on if the torsion wave would deflect or defend against the consortium torsion beam weapons?

[Fel]

Actually, a Torsion field is about the only real defense against a Torsion beam, because it uses the same principle as the weapon as a defense. The Torsion Shockwave generated by Karinne ships to destroy fighters and missles distorts space, and that includes the path of the line of singularity created by a Torsion beam, but, since it's Torsion, the beam's path is too severe for it to follow the contour of the shockwave, and literally "bends" away, deflected by the shockwave. The only way it would work, however, would be for the Torsion field to be more or less continuous, lasting the entire duration of the beam's path.

The problem is that while a Torsion beam is relatively easy to create power wise, creating a constant Torsion field like a shield over the entire external volume of a ship would be impossible for the power plants in a Karinne ship to keep going. Remember, it takes a TREMENDOUS amount of energy to warp space, and even more to push space warping into the Torsion effect, even if the technology used to create it can be miniaturized to the point where Jason could build it into a Hello Kitty. That's more or less how the shockwave system works; it has to build power, then unleashes it in a single burst, like overcharging a capacitor then shorting it out. The field would repel Torsion beams that were fired as the pulse expands away from the ship, but since a Torsion weapon can be fired far faster than the shockwave system can recharge and fire, it's not a viable defensive system.

FYI, Jason's Hello Kitty would have been a "once and done" weapon, since creating a Torsion field would have overloaded its PPG and caused it to eject its core.

Now on a FIGHTER, this would be viable, since the Torsion field only has to distort a small area of space, and the power ratio for the Torsion equipment against the singularity power plants in a fighter would make it mathematically possible.

But, this isn't to say that the Torsion effect couldn't be used as a shield against a Torsion weapon. Myleena is hard at work thinking up defenses against Consortium waponry, and she just might come up with something...even as the Consortium is feverishly analyzing Karinne weaponry, looking for some way to stop the Karinne particle beams.

[expedient]

The Karinne ships wouldn't need to continuously warp space, active defense systems or point defense systems react only to the area of threat.

So with a point defense: the ship's computer detects incoming torsion beam weapon fire and reacts by firing a defensive beam only warping space sufficiently to deflect the majority of the incoming beam's effect. Much more energy efficient.

Of course the system first needs to react in sufficient time to stop each beam and even then could be easily overwhelmed if enough shots are fired before the defense beam recharges or the defending ship is outnumbered.


Reactive armor on tanks works using shaped explosives on the outside that explode when hit by a penetrating weapon. This pushes much of the attacking weapon's energy away from the tank limiting its effect. Then you have to hope that you don't get hit in exactly the same spot before the tank is repaired.

Similar shaped gravometric shockwave charges could be placed in a defensive pattern on the hull of the Karinne ships, providing a use-once protection for each hull section affected. These defense charges could use their own PPG or singularity power source, just like the Hello Kittys.


So one or both of these systems could theoretically be implemented. I'm sure Myleena has already crunched the numbers.


ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour

[TLGG]

That point defense system there made me think of something. What would happen if you fired a torsion beam into another torsion beam? Instead of using fields, you could you use a less potent torsion emitter to deflect a torsion beam? Power requirements make it somewhat unfeasible, but you'd only need so much torsion, and if the defense weapon grid had it's own power supply... Or if you could expand the range by making it a less damaging weapon, you'd take considerably less damage.

Chances are, it won't fly, torsion weapons are the way they are for a reason, but maybe you could put several into an automated platform and put it in front of the friendly fleet.

[dellstart]

That point defense system there made me think of something. What would happen if you fired a torsion beam into another torsion beam? Instead of using fields, you could you use a less potent torsion emitter to deflect a torsion beam? Power requirements make it somewhat unfeasible, but you'd only need so much torsion, and if the defense weapon grid had it's own power supply... Or if you could expand the range by making it a less damaging weapon, you'd take considerably less damage.

Chances are, it won't fly, torsion weapons are the way they are for a reason, but maybe you could put several into an automated platform and put it in front of the friendly fleet.

For a non tech head , I could actually follow this stuff. Good points.

[expedient]

...but maybe you could put several into an automated platform and put it in front of the friendly fleet.

That's given me another idea. Probes to increase the range of sensors or for reconnaissance and offensive missiles fired from ships are common sci-fi fare. Less often seen are defensive platforms that orbit around individual ships to intercept incoming missiles and fighters. They wouldn't be much use against the energy weapons used by the Consortium as they couldn't react fast enough but if they fight some of these other local groups then they might be useful. That's if the platforms can keep up with a ship's movements; else they could be deployed as mines to give a ship a chance of escape from pursuers.

[miraborn]

Probes to increase the range of sensors or for reconnaissance and offensive missiles fired from ships are common sci-fi fare. Less often seen are defensive platforms that orbit around individual ships to intercept incoming missiles and fighters. They wouldn't be much use against the energy weapons used by the Consortium as they couldn't react fast enough but if they fight some of these other local groups then they might be useful. That's if the platforms can keep up with a ship's movements; else they could be deployed as mines to give a ship a chance of escape from pursuers.

This reminds me of probes and remotes used on the show SeaQuest DSV. They had a small group of RoV's and semi-autonomous probes that went around the ship.

[Fiferguy]

Probes to increase the range of sensors or for reconnaissance and offensive missiles fired from ships are common sci-fi fare. Less often seen are defensive platforms that orbit around individual ships to intercept incoming missiles and fighters. They wouldn't be much use against the energy weapons used by the Consortium as they couldn't react fast enough but if they fight some of these other local groups then they might be useful. That's if the platforms can keep up with a ship's movements; else they could be deployed as mines to give a ship a chance of escape from pursuers.

This reminds me of probes and remotes used on the show SeaQuest DSV. They had a small group of RoV's and semi-autonomous probes that went around the ship.

Whiskers, I think they were called. But I was thinking same thing when I was reading that.

[ANTIcarrot]

This reminds me of probes and remotes used on the show SeaQuest DSV. They had a small group of RoV's and semi-autonomous probes that went around the ship.

More specifically you're getting close to the ACV concept from Albedo comic. (Erma Felna EDF etc.) Small high thrust sensor packages that can fuction as warheads because of their speed. Or this UAV carrier proposal from BAe. UAVs however only work because they can use a different kind of engine then the ship needs to. ACVs are not designed to be recoverable, and have finite DeltaV. Both occupy significant internal space in their mothership.



I can't really see Jason using such things though. He already has neigh-magical sensors for sub-light engagements, and access to the Kimdori's neigh-magical sensors for FTL tracking.

The problem is that while a Torsion beam is relatively easy to create power wise...<snip>

The other problem with using any kind of energy-well/peak (such as a space-time distortion) for protection, is that it can bounce thing at your ship, as well as away from it.

[SYED]

Torsion shockwaves or beams would allows missiles or boading craft to pierce armour and shielding, as well as deal with hostile fire.
IN the honor harrington books, the engines created an effect where a side of the ship was defended from enemy fire due to it warping space.
I was wondering instead of a space quake could it produce a wave , to push or pull a ship alonng, sort of like the warp engine or mass effect field, that allowed speeds that reach ftl potential in real space, it would allow for quicker movement in indicted space.
If you can warp space, then you can use that to push, or pull your self through space. so new engine is possible.

[SYED]

REmember that big cannon jason has on the moon, he plans to put it on some ships right, it was a one shot, on kill gun on any ship possibly more, with no limited range just had to be aimed. The thing is the stations hey have are all fixed, so after they ambush the incomming fleet, let them go in for repairs and jump the ships in, and let the shipps shoot the station from beyond their range of retaliation. THey would not have built so mony if there was no need for them, even if the stations survive, extra ships will be detailed for guarding duties.