Sennadar Forums

Fel, I have just had a reread of Subjugation and Insurrection and I spotted some confusion in how you address the relationships outside of marriage. It seems that you have used a number of terms and I wondered just which term you wanted to lock in as the standard for this relationship. The following are the sentences where the terms are used;

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and the four of them formed what in Faey terms was called the amu dozei, the harmonious love, a term closely related to the amu donai, the courtly love, where a single spouse shared a deep “platonic” love affair with someone outside the marriage that did not involve the spouse.
Chapter 20, Page 1024 of Subjugation.doc

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“I saw an interesting little blurb on INN this morning,” Dahnai noted as the turned with grace, sweeping the right arm out wide. “I didn’t know you had an amu dozei.”
Chapter 20, Page 1025 of Subjugation.doc

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Because of your amu dozei, she answered as a maid started drawing her a bath. That showed me that you’re okay with some Faey customs. I decided before I met you that I’d honor your Terran traditions, so I considered you out of bounds. But then I find out you’re sharing with a friend. So, I figured, if you’re willing to have buddy sex with your amu dozei, you wouldn’t have an issue having buddy sex with me.
Chapter 20, Page 1038 of Subjugation.doc

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“So, now that I have you here, let me say congratulations again,” Dahnai said. “We don’t talk nearly enough, Duchess. Seeing as how I’ve kinda stolen your husband as my amu dorai, I really think we should get to know each other.”
Chapter 20, Page 1057 of Subjugation.doc

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“That he does,” Dahnai chuckled. “I never really planned to have sex with him, actually, because I read that humans have much different attitudes about it than we do, but then I heard about your amu dozei friends and figured what the hell.
Chapter 20, Page 1057 of Subjugation.doc

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But, if he doesn’t find love with my daughter, he can still have an amu dorai and find true love, he’ll just already have a wife, that’s all.
Chapter 20, Page 1058 of Subjugation.doc

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He was married to a Faey, had two Faey girlfriends, amu dorai, Symone and Dahnai…though it was more formal with one than the other. Symone was a true amu dorai, which in Faey meant “courtly love,” where his relationship with Dahnai was more distant now.
Chapter 1, Page 8 Insurrection1.doc


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http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.ph ... rai#p13150
Re: Insurrection, chapter 3.
Post by Fel » 01 Jan 2008 13:33
She's a foul-mouthed, dirty-minded, wanton little slut (but only a slut with her husband and her amu dorai).

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http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.ph ... onai#p9790
Re: Faey Marriage, Sex and Kids
Post by Fel » 08 Jan 2007 03:45
Faey even have a word for it, Amu donai, or "courtly love."

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http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.ph ... rai#p15581
Re: Karinne Generation's powers
For love typically the Nobles look to their Amu Dorai for that.


And I have had a ball getting back into this story again, this has grown to be one of my favourite tales and I wish there were more around in that universe.

Good catch!
Even our biggest master sleuths didn't pick up on that one!

Fel has made multiple terms for multiple ideas. As I recall, Amu Dorai is the term for a lover outside of marriage in the context of a couple. Amu Dozei is the term for a group, usually of two couples, who have sex between all combinations of the members of the group. IE- Jason talks about how all four of them have sex with each other to some degree.

Hope this helps.

This is just a guess on my part but here goes. Fel I believe speaks Japanese, if that is the case and with the limited knoweledge I gained while stationed in Japan, the alternating terms that are used are what like it has been stated above. The first quote listed in the opening post is what gives me this impression as it is structured along english translation of Japanese words that have deeper meaning than being just descriptors. The carfeful, subtle separtion of the meaning of Amu Dozei from Amu Donai is what trips it for me. Also the fact that they are made up words that are along Japanese lines in sounding. I noticed those differences very early in the Subjugation Books but to me they weren't noteworthy from the above mentioned reason. I guess my quasi famialarity with some Japanese conventions made me overlook that were some others wouldn't.

As a FYI in Japanese culture and language there are words that sound similar but have subtle but very meaningful differences in what they are describing. Misuse of a particular phrase can lead to gross insult if you don't know those differences and some would have lead to death prior to Japans modern era. Of course there is also words that sound totally different that also fall into this realm and can cause the same problem such as the word Geisha. Most of the western world think the word Geisha means prostitute but that is far from the truth.

Follow the link provided to see what I mean about Geisha, Geiko and Geigi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisha

OK, four concepts in Faey culture concerning carnal relations:

1) That between friends, where it's an indication of the depth of the friendship, that you're a good enough friend that you'll be there when they need you, as it were. You really do like each other, and it is a physical expression of that liking, but love, per se, is the good friends kind of thing.

2) Amu Dorai, the Courtly Love, where one member of a committed bond has a serious, nearly as committed, relationship with another outside of that bond. Still not having the mental sharing that is limited to the committed bond, but deeper than the relationship between good friends, there is a committed love of depth, less than the committed bond in that no mental communion occurs.

3) Amu Dozai, the Harmonious Love, where two committed bonds have formed the Amu Dorai relationship with the respective members of the other bond; it is Harmonious in that it balances, both members of each bond have found both members of the other bond to be good and true friends, and a deep long-term relationship has formed with the respective members of the other bond, less than that within each bond only in not encompassing the mental merging reserved for marriage/committed bonds.

4) The committed bond/Marriage, where not only is the flesh blended but the minds are opened and conjoined, literally nothing is held back, nothing is reserved, all barriers are down and both are totally vulnerable; to the Faey, sharing this with someone other than your spouse is the only grounds for divorce, for it is the ultimate intimacy, reserved for your one true love, or at least your main squeeze if not married; you don't indiscriminately blend minds, and the difference between making love [with blended minds] and having sex [without blended minds] is so vast that no one can confuse the two.

The first three involve carnal relations, the fourth involves making love. And the two cannot be confused.

One thing one gathers from all this is that the Faey have no venereal diseases, given that as a society they use no contraceptives or prophylactics. They are matriarchal, and the only constraint is that it is considered ultra-tacky for the first child within a marriage to not genetically be the husband's, all offspring are considered the husband's offspring regardless of genetic reality, it's just tacky for the first child within the marriage to be sired by someone else. So as a society the act of having sex says that the gal thinks well enough of the guy to be willing to have children by him, and any children will be welcomed by and belong to the mother's house.

Thanks everybody for the clarification of the different types of relationships amongst the Faey. I think I am getting it.

Amu Dorai, the Courtly Love, where one member of a committed bond has a serious, nearly as committed, relationship with another outside of that bond.

So is this snippet right because it is a single person from a relationship (Dahnai, and later on Krellin) who has gone outside of her relationship to a single person of another relationship (Jason and Jyslin)?
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“So, now that I have you here, let me say congratulations again,” Dahnai said. “We don’t talk nearly enough, Duchess. Seeing as how I’ve kinda stolen your husband as my amu dorai, I really think we should get to know each other.”
Chapter 20, Page 1057 of Subjugation.doc

Amu Dozai, the Harmonious Love, where two committed bonds have formed the Amu Dorai relationship with the respective members of the other bond;

And this snippet is talking about 2 people in a relationship (Tim and Symone) forming an open, sharing, relationship with another couple (Jason and Jyslin).

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“That he does,” Dahnai chuckled. “I never really planned to have sex with him, actually, because I read that humans have much different attitudes about it than we do, but then I heard about your amu dozei friends and figured what the hell.
Chapter 20, Page 1057 of Subjugation.doc

Ok, I can see the distinction between the names and the relationships. So now that I seem to be on the right page with all of these relationships, what is the Amu Donai that is being described in this snippet? Is the use of Donai a typo for Dorai or is there yet another relationship being described - non-sexual but very good friends? Because earlier the term Courtly Love was used to match the term Amu Dorai but now same term is being used to describe a platonic Amu Donai relationship.

...and the four of them formed what in Faey terms was called the amu dozei, the harmonious love, a term closely related to the amu donai, the courtly love, where a single spouse shared a deep “platonic” love affair with someone outside the marriage that did not involve the spouse.
Chapter 20, Page 1024 of Subjugation.doc

Yes, Amu Donai was a typo, although how one would hit an n rather than an r is weird to me, unless working from written notes, wherein n and r look alot alike; at least it would be real easy to make such an error working with my handwriting!

Thanks mate, that makes it all clear to me now. As soon as I see those terms I need to look at the relationships that it refers to in order to be sure just which name applies. Cool.

gday there!

I once had a similar question on how it worked and all that, this is what fel replied , hope it helps.


amu dozei is what you might call polygamy. Jyslin allows Symone to tread into "her area," the private domain usually allowed to a wife.

Where does it stop? It stops where the couples decides it stops. The two couples live in separate houses, but some amu dozei live cohabitively, forming a "family unit" where there aren't two couples, there is simply one "marital group." The two couples still separate themselves both in private and public, so they haven't gone as far as some have.

And yes, telepathy radically changes things. Telepaths are their own culture, and maybe now you see why Jason "went Faey" as many on the boards complain. It had nothing to do with turning his back on his human upbringing and identity, it was ALL about telepathy. The Faey as a race are telepathic, and as he fully came into his telepathic power, he began to identify with them more and more. He still considers himself human, but he has a more Faey mentality.

Temika, however, is different, which proves that what Jason and Tim have done, integrate completely into the telepathic culture, wasn't absolutely necessary. It was a choice, not a need.

ilox wrote:Fel, I have just had a reread of Subjugation and Insurrection and I spotted some confusion in how you address the relationships outside of marriage. It seems that you have used a number of terms and I wondered just which term you wanted to lock in as the standard for this relationship. The following are the sentences where the terms are used;

-------------------->
and the four of them formed what in Faey terms was called the amu dozei, the harmonious love, a term closely related to the amu donai, the courtly love, where a single spouse shared a deep “platonic” love affair with someone outside the marriage that did not involve the spouse.
Chapter 20, Page 1024 of Subjugation.doc

-------------------->
“I saw an interesting little blurb on INN this morning,” Dahnai noted as the turned with grace, sweeping the right arm out wide. “I didn’t know you had an amu dozei.”
Chapter 20, Page 1025 of Subjugation.doc

-------------------->
Because of your amu dozei, she answered as a maid started drawing her a bath. That showed me that you’re okay with some Faey customs. I decided before I met you that I’d honor your Terran traditions, so I considered you out of bounds. But then I find out you’re sharing with a friend. So, I figured, if you’re willing to have buddy sex with your amu dozei, you wouldn’t have an issue having buddy sex with me.
Chapter 20, Page 1038 of Subjugation.doc

-------------------->
“So, now that I have you here, let me say congratulations again,” Dahnai said. “We don’t talk nearly enough, Duchess. Seeing as how I’ve kinda stolen your husband as my amu dorai, I really think we should get to know each other.”
Chapter 20, Page 1057 of Subjugation.doc

-------------------->
“That he does,” Dahnai chuckled. “I never really planned to have sex with him, actually, because I read that humans have much different attitudes about it than we do, but then I heard about your amu dozei friends and figured what the hell.
Chapter 20, Page 1057 of Subjugation.doc

-------------------->
But, if he doesn’t find love with my daughter, he can still have an amu dorai and find true love, he’ll just already have a wife, that’s all.
Chapter 20, Page 1058 of Subjugation.doc

-------------------->
He was married to a Faey, had two Faey girlfriends, amu dorai, Symone and Dahnai…though it was more formal with one than the other. Symone was a true amu dorai, which in Faey meant “courtly love,” where his relationship with Dahnai was more distant now.
Chapter 1, Page 8 Insurrection1.doc


-------------------->
http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.ph ... rai#p13150
Re: Insurrection, chapter 3.
Post by Fel » 01 Jan 2008 13:33
She's a foul-mouthed, dirty-minded, wanton little slut (but only a slut with her husband and her amu dorai).

-------------------->
http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.ph ... onai#p9790
Re: Faey Marriage, Sex and Kids
Post by Fel » 08 Jan 2007 03:45
Faey even have a word for it, Amu donai, or "courtly love."

-------------------->
http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.ph ... rai#p15581
Re: Karinne Generation's powers
For love typically the Nobles look to their Amu Dorai for that.


And I have had a ball getting back into this story again, this has grown to be one of my favourite tales and I wish there were more around in that universe.

Well, if you want to check Chapter 2 of Unification you'll find the following answer:
"That was what it meant to be amu dozei. When it was two couples, it was a joining of couples, not a joining of individuals. When it was a single joining a couple, it was a complete acceptance of the individual into the pair-bond of the couple, literally the taking on of a second spouse. Because Jason and Dahnai both were married, Dahnai would forever be amu dorai unless Kellin and Jyslin entered into the bond as well, grew to love each other with the same passion Jason and Dahnai loved each other, forever denied a part of Jason she had often tried to take when they made love, that realm reserved only for Jyslin… and also for Symone."

GBLW wrote:Well, if you want to check Chapter 2 of Unification you'll find the following answer:
"That was what it meant to be amu dozei. When it was two couples, it was a joining of couples, not a joining of individuals. When it was a single joining a couple, it was a complete acceptance of the individual into the pair-bond of the couple, literally the taking on of a second spouse. Because Jason and Dahnai both were married, Dahnai would forever be amu dorai unless Kellin and Jyslin entered into the bond as well, grew to love each other with the same passion Jason and Dahnai loved each other, forever denied a part of Jason she had often tried to take when they made love, that realm reserved only for Jyslin… and also for Symone."

Thank you for that snippet.

So it seems I am the only one confused when I read lines like these:

ilox wrote: -------------------->
and the four of them formed what in Faey terms was called the amu dozei, the harmonious love, a term closely related to the amu donai, the courtly love, where a single spouse shared a deep “platonic” love affair with someone outside the marriage that did not involve the spouse.
Chapter 20, Page 1024 of Subjugation.doc

-------------------->
He was married to a Faey, had two Faey girlfriends, amu dorai, Symone and Dahnai…though it was more formal with one than the other. Symone was a true amu dorai, which in Faey meant “courtly love,” where his relationship with Dahnai was more distant now.
Chapter 1, Page 8 Insurrection1.doc

-------------------->
http://forums.sennadar.com/viewtopic.ph ... onai#p9790
Re: Faey Marriage, Sex and Kids
Post by Fel » 08 Jan 2007 03:45
Faey even have a word for it, Amu donai, or "courtly love."

Maybe that looks ok to you but to me I look at the words "courtly love" and I find that it is first called;
"amu donai, the courtly love".
Then it is;
"Symone was a true amu dorai, which in Faey meant “courtly love,” ".
Later we find it has shifted back again into this;
"Faey even have a word for it, Amu donai, or "courtly love." "

While it has been helpful along the way I am not really looking for people to define the basic terms, I am suggesting that there are problems with shifting goalposts on what those terms mean but only one person has spotted that this is more about typos than terminology.