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This subject deserves its own thread.Let the fun begin...

I would say just as human as he started out at the beginning of "Subjugation".

He may have absorbed some Faey culture, but that does not make him less human.

^ This.

He's as human as he started out as. He's just not as American as he was in the beginning.

Just how much of the Human remains In Our hero and how much has been converted to the Dark Side?


I feel , that the first thing to do would be quote the text . So lets do that:



"Jason put his hands on the rail and looked out over the ocean, again overcome by the beauty of his chosen home. He was so happy he lost that fight with Jyslin. He’d wanted to live in the mountains where it was cool and just commute to Karsa to work, but she had convinced him to live on the beach, convinced him that the sea breezes would keep it cool enough for him and warm enough for her. She was right. God, he loved that woman.
But…he also loved Symone. And he loved Dahnai. Not in quite the same way he loved Jyslin, but the love was there, and it was undeniable. He wondered how his parents would feel knowing that he was married to one woman and was in love with two others, and that he shared himself with all three of them. His father would have probably jokingly said “that’s my boy” before telling him that he was on the road to heartbreak, while his gentle mother would have given him that slight frown that spoke volumes of her displeasure, but said nothing.

But, if they would have understood the situation, he thought that they’d probably approve. He wasn’t living in the human culture anymore, he was living a Faey lifestyle…he was all but Faey himself now.

Funny…all those years ago, he had fled from New Orleans to preserve his humanity. And in the end, he had become everything he had raged against, and done it willingly. He now was a cog in the Imperial machine, and a rather big one, keeping it from flying apart at the seams. He lived among Faey as one of them, had adopted their culture, their customs and melded them with his human upbringing, creating something for himself that wasn’t entirely Faey, yet wasn’t entirely human. But it was more Faey than human.

He, Jason Augustus Fox Shaddale Karinne, was in love with three women, and had taken a fourth to the guest house for the explicit reason of having sex with her…and done it with the approval of his wife.

In human custom, that was definitely fringe behavior, the realm of the cultural extreme, and was just the most glaring of the many differences between Faey and human lifestyles, a fundamental lifestyle difference based on the telepathic pair bond.


Since Jyslin knew his mind, could hear his thoughts, she was not jealous of any attraction he might have to other women, for she knew he loved her with all his heart, she knew it beyond any shadow of a doubt. Why should she be jealous of another woman when she knew that she was the woman he would always choose?"


some Points to ponder:

whilst its true as pointed above , when it comes to life style choices, Jason has very much adapted to the whole Faey mentality ,due to as stated above "fundamental lifestyle difference based on the telepathic pair bond." .Yet , if we look a little deeper, we find many of the attributes that define Jason as truly Human and not Faey at all.

The first is True Compassion. whilst the Faey can be kind and thoughtful , we have yet to find one who displays pure compassion , except perhaps for their Doctors.Which may explained why they are so loved, cause its by they such a rare trait.Jason has this in spades.

The second is, his Moral Fiber , Belief , integrity and honesty , which have never waived or weakened.Jason strongly holds onto his core beliefs and values.Due to circumstances outside of his control , he has perhaps not lived as his religion for example dictates , but on this he blames himself or his circumstances not his Religion.
There are proably others but i am too tired to think of them right now

I agree with dellstart. This debate of Faey versus Human could easily be a discussion of American versus Incan or British versus Lithuanian. We humans are a many cultured people. There are so many different elements in Human society - even in American society - that to say definitively that one is Human or something else could be near impossible. I am American and look around my country to see vast differences in lifestyle, belief systems, moral codes, social standards and even sexual dispositions. One has but to travel from south Florida through Georgia, over into Bayou country, west to Utah, then to California, and last hop a plane to New York to see a vast array of Humanity in many of its splendors. From devout Christians, to orthodox Jews, to agnostics and atheists. Those that choose to be chaste, monogamist, polyamorous, or promiscuous; gay, straight, bi, tv, tg, etc. Some who are poor of wallet but rich of heart, and those rich of wallet and poor of heart. Self centered egomaniacs to selfless philanthropists.

All of the above in one country. All of them Americans, and all members of the Human race. The things that separate Humans from Faey, in general (and that must be emphasized), are the convictions, beliefs, and general outlook that Humans usually portray over the ... I'm going to use the word "Stagnant" nature of the Faey ... again, in General. There are some Faey who are more Human in that regard, and some Humans who are more Faey, but on the whole that is the major difference.

To say that someone who is a solitary, introspective, monogamous, faithful person is more or less Human than someone who is egregious, polyamorous, promiscuous, self-centered, and atheistic is like saying boiling water is not as much "water" than that at 5 degrees C.

-M

miraborn wrote:This debate of Faey versus Human could easily be a discussion of American versus Incan or British versus Lithuanian. We humans are a many cultured people. There are so many different elements in Human society - even in American society - that to say definitively that one is Human or something else could be near impossible. I am American and look around my country to see vast differences in lifestyle, belief systems, moral codes, social standards and even sexual dispositions. One has but to travel from south Florida through Georgia, over into Bayou country, west to Utah, then to California, and last hop a plane to New York to see a vast array of Humanity in many of its splendors. From devout Christians, to orthodox Jews, to agnostics and atheists. Those that choose to be chaste, monogamist, polyamorous, or promiscuous; gay, straight, bi, tv, tg, etc. Some who are poor of wallet but rich of heart, and those rich of wallet and poor of heart. Self centered egomaniacs to selfless philanthropists.

This is pretty much my point.

Take the United States of America

Declaration of Independance wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

The people who wrote that, and put their names to it felt that there was no problem with owning slaves. Women during that age were largely regarded as the property of their husbands.

A hundred years later, it was US government policy to "remove the problem of the native savages" - the Native Americans. Frontier laws permitted marraige with 12 year olds.

In the 1950's (within living memory) black and white people were not even allowed to drink from the same water fountains!

The culture has changed, I feel for the better generally. It is still changing, with things like "gay marriages". Fel's description of the areas where the Faey have settled on Earth in large numbers, like Hollywood, indicate that the Earth culture in places is also changing. I suspect that there is also a marked influence on some sectors of Faey culture as well.

I'll finish with a quote from another author I respect:

Taken from Rudyard Kipling's "In the Neolithic Age"

Still the world is wondrous large,
-- seven seas from marge to marge, --
And it holds a vast of various kinds of man;
And the wildest dreams of Kew are the facts of Khatmandhu,
And the crimes of Clapham chaste in Martaban.

Here's my wisdom for your use, as I learned it when the moose
And the reindeer roared where Paris roars to-night: --
There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
And -- every -- single -- one -- of -- them -- is -- right!

Mad Monk wrote:

miraborn wrote:This debate of Faey versus Human could easily be a discussion of American versus Incan or British versus Lithuanian. We humans are a many cultured people. There are so many different elements in Human society - even in American society - that to say definitively that one is Human or something else could be near impossible. I am American and look around my country to see vast differences in lifestyle, belief systems, moral codes, social standards and even sexual dispositions. One has but to travel from south Florida through Georgia, over into Bayou country, west to Utah, then to California, and last hop a plane to New York to see a vast array of Humanity in many of its splendors. From devout Christians, to orthodox Jews, to agnostics and atheists. Those that choose to be chaste, monogamist, polyamorous, or promiscuous; gay, straight, bi, tv, tg, etc. Some who are poor of wallet but rich of heart, and those rich of wallet and poor of heart. Self centered egomaniacs to selfless philanthropists.

This is pretty much my point.

Take the United States of America

Declaration of Independance wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

The people who wrote that, and put their names to it felt that there was no problem with owning slaves. Women during that age were largely regarded as the property of their husbands.

A hundred years later, it was US government policy to "remove the problem of the native savages" - the Native Americans. Frontier laws permitted marraige with 12 year olds.

In the 1950's (within living memory) black and white people were not even allowed to drink from the same water fountains!

The culture has changed, I feel for the better generally. It is still changing, with things like "gay marriages". Fel's description of the areas where the Faey have settled on Earth in large numbers, like Hollywood, indicate that the Earth culture in places is also changing. I suspect that there is also a marked influence on some sectors of Faey culture as well.

I'll finish with a quote from another author I respect:

Taken from Rudyard Kipling's "In the Neolithic Age"

Still the world is wondrous large,
-- seven seas from marge to marge, --
And it holds a vast of various kinds of man;
And the wildest dreams of Kew are the facts of Khatmandhu,
And the crimes of Clapham chaste in Martaban.

Here's my wisdom for your use, as I learned it when the moose
And the reindeer roared where Paris roars to-night: --
There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
And -- every -- single -- one -- of -- them -- is -- right!

Good points.
Just for clarification- where do you see Faey being affected by Human society? I would think its the other way round, hence all the protests in the Faey part of LA.

dellstart wrote:Just for clarification- where do you see Faey being affected by Human society? I would think its the other way round, hence all the protests in the Faey part of LA.

With the Earth movie industry, and "Terra TV" I would expect some younger Faey starting to be more innovative - there are lots of ideas in kids shows. Many will possibly be more rebellious and independently minded. There might also be religious conversions - Miaari made the point when she first met Jason that Faey have no faith - A charismatic preacher could gather people just as effectively as Jason. There might even be the beginings of a "Male emancipation" movement.

Even under the Trillanes, Earth was seen as a place to strike out and make your fortune for independant Faey - like those who rented Jason the warehouse. It is now a galactic melting pot and center for innovation due to the Academy.

I would even expect Faey accusing each other of "Going Terran", possibly as a mild insult or complement (depending on circumstances).

There would naturally be some sort of backlash to any of these ase well.

Mad Monk wrote:

dellstart wrote:Just for clarification- where do you see Faey being affected by Human society? I would think its the other way round, hence all the protests in the Faey part of LA.

With the Earth movie industry, and "Terra TV" I would expect some younger Faey starting to be more innovative - there are lots of ideas in kids shows. Many will possibly be more rebellious and independently minded. There might also be religious conversions - Miaari made the point when she first met Jason that Faey have no faith - A charismatic preacher could gather people just as effectively as Jason. There might even be the beginings of a "Male emancipation" movement.

Even under the Trillanes, Earth was seen as a place to strike out and make your fortune for independant Faey - like those who rented Jason the warehouse. It is now a galactic melting pot and center for innovation due to the Academy.

I would even expect Faey accusing each other of "Going Terran", possibly as a mild insult or complement (depending on circumstances).

There would naturally be some sort of backlash to any of these ase well.

A few points:

1)You think that d expect some younger Faey starting to be more innovative because there there are lots of ideas in kids shows?
My friend, they are so far ahead of Earth scientifically, that to them Terrans are still playing with Bows and Arrows. So I don't think, that is a area where humans will influence The Faey.

2)Many will possibly be more rebellious and independently minded.

That might be a possibility, if they come to view ,the advantages of our system over their own.Yet , since there system is very much based on who has the bigger stick wins , it will be hard ask for them for them to change.Akin to trying to establish democracy in Communist China , The Faey version of Temnim square , would be both bloody and brutal.So , no don't think sixty style protests are going to do it.


3) There might also be religious conversions - Miaari made the point when she first met Jason that Faey have no faith - A charismatic preacher could gather people just as effectively as Jason.
Now that's a real possibility. Imagine Faey Missionaries on Draconis , thumping the bible and tell them they are all going to hell!


4) There might even be the beginnings of a "Male emancipation" movement. well Most Faey do live in LA and California , so anythings possible!!

5)Even under the Trillanes, Earth was seen as a place to strike out and make your fortune for independent Faey - like those who rented Jason the warehouse. It is now a galactic melting pot and center for innovation due to the Academy.



True.

dellstart wrote:1)You think that d expect some younger Faey starting to be more innovative because there there are lots of ideas in kids shows?

My friend, they are so far ahead of Earth scientifically, that to them Terrans are still playing with Bows and Arrows. So I don't think, that is a area where humans will influence The Faey.

I don't claim that they will learn science and technology from Earth shows, just how to THINK! Their culture was stagnant technologically. That would imply that their engineers learned their trade "By the book" Many improvements come from tinkering, such as customising things. Even programs like "Pimp My Car" would probably be against Faey norms.

Many of the innovations Jason came up with initially were re-arranging standard components.

Mad Monk wrote:

dellstart wrote:1)You think that d expect some younger Faey starting to be more innovative because there there are lots of ideas in kids shows?

My friend, they are so far ahead of Earth scientifically, that to them Terrans are still playing with Bows and Arrows. So I don't think, that is a area where humans will influence The Faey.

I don't claim that they will learn science and technology from Earth shows, just how to THINK! Their culture was stagnant technologically. That would imply that their engineers learned their trade "By the book" Many improvements come from tinkering, such as customizing things. Even programs like "Pimp My Car" would probably be against Faey norms.

Many of the innovations Jason came up with initially were re-arranging standard components.

Perhaps. you have a point.However shouldn't the Faey , also have such blokes hence the need for black op's and R&B or is that B&R? So i am not 100% sure that there is no improvement or customizing of things .Great breakthroughs are what they are missing , though that you can tribute to the Academy not the Humans.

dellstart wrote:Perhaps. you have a point.However shouldn't the Faey , also have such blokes hence the need for black op's and R&B or is that B&R? So i am not 100% sure that there is no improvement or customizing of things .Great breakthroughs are what they are missing , though that you can tribute to the Academy not the Humans.

The Faey seem more likely to customise their things by changing the packaging, rather than the product. When they were in Cheyenne Mountain the Faey decorated the section where they lived. However, from the decriptions - almost all the Faey spacecraft had similar cockpit layouts, irrespective of which company made them, and they haddn't changed for centuries.

“Most Faey equipment is all the same anyway. If you can fly a skimmer, you could fly a fighter, no problem. It has the same controls. But you wouldn’t be able to fly a hovertank or an exomech. Faey have an odd lack of imagination when it comes to some things. When they find something that works, they won’t change it, even if it’s not entirely practical anymore. I find it strange that one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy can’t think up a better cockpit layout for a Dragonfly, given they’ve used the same layout for like three hundred years.”
“That doesn’t sound like a lack of creativity, it sounds like continuity,” he told her. “Improve the machine, but make the machine feel the same.”
“Yeah, but when the new technology makes the design inefficient, wouldn’t it make sense to upgrade?”
He chuckled.
“I’m serious. The Dragonfly has way more controls than a Falcon, but it has the same cockpit layout. Instead of redesigning the cockpit configuration, they just made the existing configuration smaller with smaller buttons and screens and stuck the new controls and instruments in mish-mash in the open spaces,” she told him. Gods help them when they roll the new Raptor fighter out next year. It’s even more complex than a Dragonfly.”

"Black Opps" would be needed to deal with the other races that the Faey seem to be constantly fighting, like the Skaa.

Mad Monk wrote:

dellstart wrote:Perhaps. you have a point.However shouldn't the Faey , also have such blokes hence the need for black op's and R&B or is that B&R? So i am not 100% sure that there is no improvement or customizing of things .Great breakthroughs are what they are missing , though that you can tribute to the Academy not the Humans.

The Faey seem more likely to customise their things by changing the packaging, rather than the product. When they were in Cheyenne Mountain the Faey decorated the section where they lived. However, from the decriptions - almost all the Faey spacecraft had similar cockpit layouts, irrespective of which company made them, and they haddn't changed for centuries.

“Most Faey equipment is all the same anyway. If you can fly a skimmer, you could fly a fighter, no problem. It has the same controls. But you wouldn’t be able to fly a hovertank or an exomech. Faey have an odd lack of imagination when it comes to some things. When they find something that works, they won’t change it, even if it’s not entirely practical anymore. I find it strange that one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy can’t think up a better cockpit layout for a Dragonfly, given they’ve used the same layout for like three hundred years.”
“That doesn’t sound like a lack of creativity, it sounds like continuity,” he told her. “Improve the machine, but make the machine feel the same.”
“Yeah, but when the new technology makes the design inefficient, wouldn’t it make sense to upgrade?”
He chuckled.
“I’m serious. The Dragonfly has way more controls than a Falcon, but it has the same cockpit layout. Instead of redesigning the cockpit configuration, they just made the existing configuration smaller with smaller buttons and screens and stuck the new controls and instruments in mish-mash in the open spaces,” she told him. Gods help them when they roll the new Raptor fighter out next year. It’s even more complex than a Dragonfly.”

"Black Opps" would be needed to deal with the other races that the Faey seem to be constantly fighting, like the Skaa.

Thats just my point. You have to be innovative especially when dealing with guerrilla or even conventional warfare.That's the name of the game.Dogged thinking will only get you shot down or worse, defeated.
Whilst its true that there is a certian set mindset ( as to be found in any military,if it aint broke dont fix it.) hence not messing with something that works.That's a reflection of the military not the general populous.

There are two further issues that compound this question:
1) Faey and humans can have children together, so they are essentially the SAME species, not simply closely related or visually similar. The Faey have access to telepathy (~magic) though, so the question becomes 'are witches human'? How do you define species and sub-species in that context? In scientific terms, Jason has more Faey characteristics than human ones, and therefore he's an odd looking Faey. Alternatively, if you want a Valley Of The Blind simile, then Jason simply is not blind.

2) An examination of Jason's morality cannot take place before we examine the world he lives in. Consider a King who treats his servants with kindness and respect. Is he a nice man? It's not that simple. If the entire kingdom outside his castle walls is starving and diseased then suddenly he's not as nice as his behavior would indicate. The Subjugation series is a incredibly narrow and tight focused view which makes it almost impossible to view things in the larger context.

Jason thinks he is a good man, and he is surrounded by aliens who think he is a good man. But the Faey characters have rather low standards for 'ethical' behavior. Kimdori standards seem just as bad (good = our best interests/what we want it to be) with slightly more vulnerability/emphasis to/on pear pressure. Other cross-breed humans are vanishingly rare as characters and the only pure blood human character has barely a dozen lines.

It boils down to what I call the Goldfur Problem. Bernard Doove (the character's creator) has specifically said he doesn't care about what happens to anyone other than his own characters. But that means that he must give Goldfur the same kind of attitude; because he only writes what he is interesting, and Goldfur has no independent choice. When you put that kind of character in a world where Very Bad Things happen on a regular basis off stage, and the character doesn't care, then you can get a contradiction between what the characters says and what they actually seem to do.

In the end it's down to the reader. Reading and writing is a collective illusion. Characters are not real, but we care about them because they have the illusion of life. In this story though, and stories like it, there are two separate parallel illusions. It is ultimately the readers choice which one you chose to believe in.

dellstart wrote:Whilst its true that there is a certian set mindset ( as to be found in any military,if it aint broke dont fix it.) hence not messing with something that works.That's a reflection of the military not the general populous.

Don't forget that the general population is ex-military, as every woman has had to serve her "Enlistment" of five years. This takes place while they are still impressionable, so it fixes a certain mindset in the population.

The Noble houses havn't changed since the third civil war, a thousand years previously. That may mean that there is little social change as well. In order to preserve the status quo, and their own power, the houses might be stifling innovation. It may not be a deliberate policy, it could be that anyone who is a bit different is frowned on.