More human generations?

[SYED]

so with biogenetic computers can you give telekineses or telepathy.

[ANTIcarrot]

Damn Gora's Law, making the Shio so similar to the Faey and the Terrans....

I must be seeing things. That almost looks like a fieldmouse flying helplessly through the air. But that makes no sense. Why would someone throw a mouse like that into a room full of house cats. Why? It would be simple wonton cruelty...

Fel why damn Gora's Law? .......Gora's law works fine if they all started from one and the same common parent Homo Erectus species.
Just cause Ghost In The Shell [...] dosen't grant them Telepathic abilitys.

IIRC, Gora's Law is the theory of convergent evolution. Sharks and dolphins look similar (streamlining) because that's an optimum shape for moving through the water. So common descent never counts as Gora's Law unless the two forms diverged first, which haven't here.

The exact abilities of the cybernetic humans will remain a mystery until Fel deigns to publish, but remember there are two types of cyberbrains in GITS. Togosa has minimal additional brain implants. Kusanagi's brain is (in most versions) largely made of implants. It's why she and Buma can jum[p off tall buildings and survive a landing at terminal velocity without destroying their brains. Both have 'effective' telepathy via cellular radio, in that they can talk to each other without speaking. Togosa could probably learn how to brain hack if he wanted to. Kusanagi already can do that to cyberbrains, and the level of argumentation in her head means she would probably be immune to Faey domination. Even at the Togusa level, it woudl be possible to build in some 'circuit breakers' to protect a mind from being damaged, dominated, or interogated by a purely telepathic attack. (Assuming Faey have trouble with drugged minds.) All those things produce stress reactions that are probably easily detectable and quite characteristic.

However... Biogenic computers can generate psychic abilities independently (whatshername levitated the ring of ringiness at Jason) and can be connected in various ways to regular computers.

[Phantom]

Damn Gora's Law, making the Shio so similar to the Faey and the Terrans....

I must be seeing things. That almost looks like a fieldmouse flying helplessly through the air. But that makes no sense. Why would someone throw a mouse like that into a room full of house cats. Why? It would be simple wonton cruelty...

Fel why damn Gora's Law? .......Gora's law works fine if they all started from one and the same common parent Homo Erectus species.
Just cause Ghost In The Shell [...] dosen't grant them Telepathic abilitys.

IIRC, Gora's Law is the theory of convergent evolution. Sharks and dolphins look similar (streamlining) because that's an optimum shape for moving through the water. So common descent never counts as Gora's Law unless the two forms diverged first, which haven't here.

I ment why since Fel hasn't told us everything ....
could be the planets were transplanted with more then just Homo Erectus species/ others....

Maybe the planets didn't have any Higher forms of life before the transplanting took place .......Gora could only see what was allready there....Gora had no knowledge of what happened pretransplanting ....so Goras law could actualy just explain the conditions post transplanting ...not actualy convergent evolution

But evolution Post-Transplant

The exact abilities of the cybernetic humans will remain a mystery until Fel deigns to publish, but remember there are two types of cyberbrains in GITS. Togosa has minimal additional brain implants. Kusanagi's brain is (in most versions) largely made of implants. It's why she and Buma can jum[p off tall buildings and survive a landing at terminal velocity without destroying their brains. Both have 'effective' telepathy via cellular radio, in that they can talk to each other without speaking. Togosa could probably learn how to brain hack if he wanted to. Kusanagi already can do that to cyberbrains, and the level of argumentation in her head means she would probably be immune to Faey domination. Even at the Togusa level, it woudl be possible to build in some 'circuit breakers' to protect a mind from being damaged, dominated, or interogated by a purely telepathic attack. (Assuming Faey have trouble with drugged minds.) All those things produce stress reactions that are probably easily detectable and quite characteristic.]

Problem is the types were talking about here are NOT implanted

they are like wearing a gesalt or helmet ....and not physicly conected full time

However... Biogenic computers can generate psychic abilities independently (whatshername levitated the ring of ringiness at Jason) and can be connected in various ways to regular computers.

so with biogenetic computers can you give telekineses or telepathy.

SYED the answer to that is Yes and No

Yes in that it could alow access to telekineses or telepathy like abilitys .... would it give them the actual abilitys ...no

the Bio-genitic computers would also be limited by size-complexity in what or how much access or abilitys it could do.
this still is limited by what Fel decides he will allow them to do as well....we won't see Jason/Cibi levels in any them i'm sure.

we will only see those levels in a Bio-genitic Mainframe like Cibi and even then only with someone of Jasons power.
even then i think there will be limits ....you do realize that Cibi is in Love with Jason right ? i'm not sure even Cibi relizes that yet.

while they will increase the abilitys of non-telepaths to opperate fighters and survive combat better then non-enhanced ones....
it still won't give or allow them God like powers.

we'll have to wait and see what Fel actualy allows ...remember Fel/Jason dosen't want Bio-genitic tech falling in to others hands
so that just may seriously limit what is put into fighters/other




Phantom

[expedient]

but remember there are two types of cyberbrains in GITS.

I arguably might count it as five; 3) Those like the Major who can store their minds in the network without the need for a body, 4) Self-aware machine intelligences that become aware through close interaction with humans, and 5) Stand Alone Complexes, i.e. multi-node group minds within the networks that can start in the subconscious. Case 4 would be like the computers on the ships which seem almost self-aware but are not. Over time they might become self-aware through extensive interaction with their crew, unlike Cybi where it was inevitable due to her greater complexity and inherent design.

Major Kusanagi was also able to control multiple bodies simultaneously. Imagine one pilot controlling an entire flight wing with assistance from game-like AIs to maintain formations/flight patterns. Within Karis space they could be both remotely piloted and powered.

[SYED]

How complicated would it be to create a mind shield, its a simply technique, depending on your power sources, could hold against any telepath. SO level the playing field for humans and shio, no faey capable of messing with minds, and it wont even leave house karrine, jason controls the humans and the shio would join for such an advantage. would this new computer mind interaction allow minds to shareinfo with computers

[Phantom]

How complicated would it be to create a mind shield, its a simply technique, depending on your power sources, could hold against any telepath. SO level the playing field for humans and shio, no faey capable of messing with minds, and it wont even leave house karrine, jason controls the humans and the shio would join for such an advantage. would this new computer mind interaction allow minds to shareinfo with computers

Must not be too easy or someone would have created it already

But then maybe the karrine's did years ago and buried it in thier data base somewhere
since they were already such strong telepaths and they never ever needed it.



Phantom

[SYED]

The project was all about making stronger telepaths, they would have aquired alien dna, and done side projects.

Also the karrines would have collected technical data bases from 1000 years so to keep tech advantage.

[ANTIcarrot]

How complicated would it be to create a mind shield

Four possible techniques. First is the brain tissue substitution technique I outlined, which almost certainly would work IF you survived the process. (Which like any surgery would eventually become a certainty.)

Second would be a implanted monitor system that connected everyone in a building (for example) into an automated security system. Wouldn't stop it as such, but would make it really hard to profit from this activity.

Third would be to somehow figure out how to induce a faey brain (or brain tissue) to telepathically scream, loudly, and constantly. This may involve some unfortunate ethical and PR side issues. A loud enough 'screamer' would force most faey to shut their minds tightly against the broadcast, though those skilled, powerful, or psychotic enough would be able to ignore the effects. Unfortunarely those three groups are the ones you most want the shield to work against!

And fourth woudl of course be hiring a Faey or Kimdori to make sure no one does it. Unfortunately this means trusting a Faey or Kimdori...

[expedient]

How complicated would it be to create a mind shield, its a simply technique, depending on your power sources, could hold against any telepath. SO level the playing field for humans and shio, no faey capable of messing with minds, and it wont even leave house karrine, jason controls the humans and the shio would join for such an advantage. would this new computer mind interaction allow minds to shareinfo with computers

Must not be too easy or someone would have created it already

But then maybe the karrine's did years ago and buried it in thier data base somewhere
since they were already such strong telepaths and they never ever needed it.

I'm pretty confident that it hasn't been done. The Karinnes are the only ones that we've encountered with the ability to artificially create psionic effects. Now, if the Karinnes had this technology it would be one of the first things they'd put into the gestalts/house interfaces, to protect against a sufficiently powerful surprise attack if nothing else. To protect against experimental telepathic computers for a second reason. They must have considered the idea.

Indeed, the only reason I can think of why the Karinnes might not aggressively pursue such a technology would be if the gap between Karinne telepaths and the rest of the faey was huge. However, 1) not all Karinnes were generations, and 2) surely the general faey population couldn't have improved so much in that short a time-frame when genetic manipulation is supposedly outlawed.

[Seastallion]

However... Biogenic computers can generate psychic abilities independently (whatshername levitated the ring of ringiness at Jason) and can be connected in various ways to regular computers.

The following MAY be spoilerish... but I'm not Fel, so I could be way off base. On the other hand Fel himself has said that the BMI (Biogenic Mind Interface, just my name for it...) will play a significant role in Succession. Having said that...

Spoiler

Show

I agree that the Biogenic computers could conceivably give non-telepathic Humans/Shio certain psychic abilities, but it would still render them unable to communicate with a normal telepath, using said ability. Only a Generation would be able to understand them, since in effect the computer would be doing the sending for them. It should still allow the user of a Biogenic Mind Interface to have telepathic effects, such as mental shielding and possibly even attack. Yana and other top tier non-Generation telepaths can hear Biogenic telepathy, they simply can't understand them. Logically, if they can hear the Biogenic telepathic signal, it should be able to affect them in other ways as well. Telepathic shielding and attack by BMI's (Biogenic Mind Interface), ought to be theoretically possible at least. This would in effect allow House Karinne to make virtual telepaths out of the entire Human (and possibly Shio) race, or at least those that would go for it. It would automatically give every non-Teep Human with a BMI at least a chance of going toe-to-toe with another telepath. That as they say, would level the playing field for the non-Teep humans. This would allow House Karinne to expand it's telepathic forces considerably. A billion humans with BMI's could give the Karinne's a huge numerical boost in deploy-able forces capable of protecting themselves from Teep attack.

Telekinesis may or may not be a viable ability as well, although the Biogenic version of TK is apparently an alternate form of the natural ability. Cybi is capable of doing a form of her own TK, as well as acting as an amplifier for a Generation's natural ability. Cybi once carried Jason to bed using her own power, but it is unclear if her ability was being generated and utilized all the way from Kosinigi, or if she was able to use the Tactical Gestalt in Jason's basement, or the Communion Relays around Karsa. If a Biogenic computer can generate the alternate TK ability (as opposed to just amplifying a Generation's natural ability) then it would certainly give said user simulated TK ability.

If that is the case, imagine an army of a billion people capable of using telepathy and telekinesis. That would probably give the entire Imperium and everyone else a moment of pause. Telekinetic ability is prized in the Imperium because it is so rare, and strong TK ability is even more rare. If that army was trained in how to use TK, it would give them a fearsome weapon indeed. Not a single member of that army would ever have to engage in hand-to-hand combat as long as their MBI was intact. They could simply pick their opponents up and rip them apart. Geez, if all that ends up being true in Succession, NO WONDER it would be such a major plot point. We know that a Generation combined with a CBIM is capable of ripping battleships apart, or even with just a Tactical Gestalt probably capable of ripping a mecha apart. If a tactical form of BMI's could be built, it would give said users very great power. Combined with Crusader armor and Gladiator Mechas, and the flight abilities they would give, your talking about an extremely scary, hard to kill, highly mobile army. Essentially, once said army were to get past the powerful long range weapons that would be thrown at them, they would basically run right over any opposing force no matter their numbers.

I would see a typical planetary assault for this sort of army basically playing out like so... Firstly the warships in orbit would begin an orbital bombardment against the major long range weaponry, with possible assistance with either Wolf Fighters and/or perhaps with Karinne designed Bombers. After that, the flight pack equipped Gladiator Mechas would land and secure DMZ positions for dropships and Corvettes to bring down Crusader armored soldiers. After that, the soldiers would begin securing territory, at a relatively high speed. With Crusader armor flight capability and Tactical BMI's said army should make short and quick work of any opposing forces. The machine sensors combined with the telepathic senses of the BMI's should reveal most forces in hiding, allowing the Karinne army to wipe them out in short order. All of that not even really taking into account the damage the Kimdori could do before the attack ever began. As long as the Kimdori vacated out of areas of mass destruction before the attack began, they would probably be fine.

All that is just from the traditional warfare side of things. That doesn't even take into account computer hacking, and other potential specialized skills that could be influenced. Using remote probes via the mind would no longer be the exclusive domain of the Generations. BMI users could utilize remote probes for any number of reasons. In the warfare aspect, they could send out probes (such as those used by the Wolf Fighters) to check out the areas around them before they get there to spot trouble before they arrive. In addition they could use such probes to watch their own backs, so to speak. Even elderly or disabled people could participate by remotely using robotic bodies to do their fighting for them, so long as their link wasn't somehow jammed. That idea alone would allow such an army using the BMI to double it's size to at least two billion people, probably more. The BMI controlled robots might be the first wave in an attack, to avoid casualties. As long as those robots couldn't be jammed, they would remove Generation or BMI users as targets all together. Robot Soldier Body gets destroyed, you just get another one and keep fighting. All of that is probably only scratching the surface of would be possible. Seriously though, remote robot bodies to do the fighting for you... sounds like something Jason would pursue just to avoid casualties, and BMI using humans to control them, since there are only limited numbers of Generations.

[SYED]

generations have the ability to use communion, a sort of mind merge, what would that mean if say ten generation and a biogenetic computer communed, would this enhance and share their combined powers. for the other telepaths i have never heard of such mind sharing skills.

[Seastallion]

generations have the ability to use communion, a sort of mind merge, what would that mean if say ten generation and a biogenetic computer communed, would this enhance and share their combined powers. for the other telepaths i have never heard of such mind sharing skills.

To my knowledge, Fel hasn't actually addressed combined telepathic skills, only operating with individual skills. He has addressed one telepath using their talent to cover someone else for various reasons. However, outside of Generation Communion with Biogenic computers augmenting their powers, or telepathic merging (usually during sex or something), telepathic combination skills haven't been addressed. It may be that telepathy in Fel's world wouldn't work that way, or maybe he just hasn't thought to use it. In the Subjugation universe, telepathy seems to be a very individual oriented ability. Perhaps it is because such combos would require a great deal of trust between the participants, and Fey really aren't a trusting lot despite their telepathy. Rather ironic really... Fey can trust each other enough in pair bonds, but in general they are just as distrustful of each other as mundane humans. As Jason put it, it's really just a radio he hears in his head mostly. Telepaths shield their thoughts from each other as much as non-telepaths do, unless one of them forces their way in, which would be the equivalent of a mundane torturing another for information, sort of.

[expedient]

I sure Fel has thought of merged telepathic communion, after all he developed a complex system in the Sennadar books for the magical equivalent (circles). One thing to note is that we haven't seen two of the 97th Generation get that intimate yet. Jason and Myleena have had sex but the kind of full access bonding which might be required is only practiced between spouses, as we've seen with Jyslin. The children might be the key to unlocking all this if this is right direction.

I agree with Seastallion's suggestion that Jason would find remotely controlled drones, utilizing broadcast power, an irresistible avenue to explore. This is pretty much what 3D has been up to all along.

[Seastallion]

I agree with Seastallion's suggestion that Jason would find remotely controlled drones, utilizing broadcast power, an irresistible avenue to explore. This is pretty much what 3D has been up to all along.

That Jason has a penchant for using remote devices and highly interested in the broadcast power system is beyond doubt, to anyone who's read the Subjugation series. That is simply part of the plot at this point. More specifically, I was suggesting the use of "Battlebots" by humans outfitted with BMI's (Biogenic Mind Interfaces, as suggested in Tribulation) or Generations as well. Such 'battlebots' could be remotely controlled as soldiers without actually putting the lives of the controllers in immediate jeopardy. Jason is all about protecting the lives of his people, and this sort of idea would seem to be right up his alley. BMI remotely controlled drones are just an expansion on that same ability that could be used for warfare or other applications. Jason and house Karinne are the Kings of using remote devices, the BMI device would simply give more finely controlled applications to that ability, such as Generations, with Biogenic devices. Thus giving non-telepathic humans Generation-like abilities to merge with machines to use them remotely as well as immediately, such as in fighters or mechas.

Smaller 'people sized' robots controlled remotely by humans with BMI's would be highly effective, while also keeping them out of immediate danger. Every time a soldier robot gets taken out, the same person controlling it could just get another one, and continue fighting. It would be sort of like a video game for them, where they can fight, but not have to really worry about dying. Given the factory production capability seen so far, it would be child's play for Karinne to build a huge army of human sized robots, that would be controlled remotely, and also have enough for replacements too. Heck, they could probably have some that would work under computer control, like NPC's in a game, until a users robot gets taken out, or perhaps they choose to control a different body for some tactical reason.

Again, even elderly and disabled people could participate in the war this way. An old combat veteran could use the BMI to not only have enhanced physical abilities on the battlefield, but also to bring their experience and expertise with them. Much like Jake Sully did in the 'James Cameron movie', Avatar. Jake's real body was disabled, but with his avatar body, he had far greater physical ability than usual, and he was able to bring his soldier skills along for the ride. I guess you could call such robotic devices, Avatar Soldier-bots.

[expedient]

Yeah, I got that. I meant that it would be a logical extension to the research that they are already conducting at 3D. If they can get beyond the technical hurdles - such as uninterruptible non-laggy communications, for example. These are exactly the types of tactics that Jason would find appealing.