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Whilst what you have stated is one hundred percent true, nevertheless, there is still hard nosed almost ruthless side to our little Furry queen.She uses and welds the politician situation to suit her needs, however worthy they might be.The fact she introduced a constitutional monarchy on a certian level was only because it suited her.kerri likes being in charge, which is political power in just another guise.That's my take at least.

whats is of even more interest , is the comparison between Keri and Dahnai . Whilst Keri's loyalty , character and alliances were never in doubt,It does make you wonder about our Empress.
In some ways they are quite similar ,both were a product of a ruthless upbringing in a cesspool of political intrigue.Both were scarred by the fact,with a deep distrust and almost paranoia of intimate personal relationships.Each was shown the truth ,and overcame it.Forming a deep bond with the hero in the story.
Whereas kerri proved a true Blue friend , The Jury's out where Danhai is concerned.Though that speech on the beach , does at least give you some grounds for hope.

any ideas>?

afrigeek wrote:Being that you're a Da'shar too according to the forum... you just had to defend the fact that being a Da'shar doesn't make someone hungry for power... lest we mark you as hungry for forum posts

I sent the early draft for this to dellstart in a PM so here is my final draft opion on Dahanai and Kerri's personality and how they got to where they are. So for your debating pleasure:

Yes Kerri does have a flair for the use of power and she is a take charge person, however the reasons for that are outside driven not from personal want. The reason she wields power so well is that she has been chosen not by 1 but 2 Goddesses, Kikkali and Niami, to bring about change in Wikuna. Niami stated to Tarrin in Book 2 of Firestaff she needed Kerri to be Queen and later on Kikkali told Tarrin and then demonstrated to the Wikuni that Kerri is special to her as well. So basically when you have two individuals of that magnitude predetermine your fate to be Queen, they will damm well make sure you know how to wield power. Her take charge aspect is because of the circumstances of her upbringing. By the end of Firestaff if you read what Jervis tells Kerri about the death of her older sister you can extrapolate that most of the attempts on her life and her sisters lives was done by Damon and made to look like one of her sisters. Damon wanted the sisters to fight each other, he wanted them to have no friends for he saw them as a weakness, he wanted them to trust no one and nothing but power just like himself. Basically Damon was teaching his offspring not to love anything but power. Now in Kerri’s sisters for the most part it worked, but in Kerri she had Kikkali’s protection in the form of Miranda. Now Kerri didn’t want to see Miranda’s fate be the same as her childhood friend so she was forced to take charge of Miranda’s life. She taught Miranda how to survive in that snakepit. The only others around her were bodyguards so Kerri got in the habit of being the one in charge.

Dahanai on the other hand was not raised that way even though she was fostered. She was raised in a loving environment, she was not taught to fear and loath her siblings and family. She was taught that family is everything and that the only way to protect her family was to be the best Empress she could be. To be the Empress and protect her family she must maintain control and the only way to do that was to get and maintain power.

Kerri was being taught that power was an ends onto itself and to seek it out for its own sake. Dahanai was taught that power was something she could use to protect herself, her family and loved ones and seek it out for their sakes. However their positions are far different. The Erams had absolute power because they had the pledge of the Vendari an outside military power that the nobles couldn‘t match. The Wikuna Monarch’s word was law until Kerri changed it and only really had to fear assassination since none of the other nobles had the military might to oppose them. Dahanai’s situation is different. Her Family came to power through a coalition that over threw a sitting Empress. So her family never had absolute power. They also didn’t have an outside military power loyal to them only. So the Merrane Empresses had to share power with the other nobles and that is spelled out in the Sian Charter, which is the Faey version of the Magna Carta. Now Dahanai is trying to get that outside power that would be loyal to the Merranes in the form of the Karinnes.

Think of it like this: the Vendari only follow the king of Wikuna based on his honor as determined by Sashka. When Sashka determined that Kerri had the honor to rule the Vendari Damon was out on his ass post haste. Now lets look at the Karinnes. Just like the Vendari is a part of the Wikuna kingdom, the Karinnes are part of the Imperium, but at the same time they are both separate from those kingdoms. The Karinnes first backed the Merranes because of how Jason got his ring, then because Jason loves Dahanai. Now you have the betrothal of Shya and Rann followed by Raisha’s conception. However just like if the king of Wikuna shows no honor in Sashka’s eyes, if the Merranes violated the trust in Jason’s eyes he will pull his support of them. Jason wants a stable Imperium, but that doesn’t mean a Merrane has to be Empress to be stable. So in the Subjugation universe the Karinnes are its version of the Vendari and Jason its version of Sashka (just with out that scary wisdom). So if Jason decides that the Imperium would be better off with a different Empress, then Dahanai is screwed, since the KMS is the most powerful single military in the sector, just like the Vendari.

In conclusion Kerri had absolute secular power and got rid of it seeking stability. Dahanai never had absolute power but is seeking it for protection.
Kerri started from a position of not having a family due to power, while Dhanai had a loving family and wanting power to protect it.

boballab wrote:Kerri was being taught that power was an ends onto itself and to seek it out for its own sake. Dahanai was taught that power was something she could use to protect herself, her family and loved ones and seek it out for their sakes. However their positions are far different. The Erams had absolute power because they had the pledge of the Vendari an outside military power that the nobles couldn‘t match. The Wikuna Monarch’s word was law until Kerri changed it and only really had to fear assassination since none of the other nobles had the military might to oppose them. Dahanai’s situation is different. Her Family came to power through a coalition that over threw a sitting Empress. So her family never had absolute power. They also didn’t have an outside military power loyal to them only. So the Merrane Empresses had to share power with the other nobles and that is spelled out in the Sian Charter, which is the Faey version of the Magna Carta. Now Dahanai is trying to get that outside power that would be loyal to the Merranes in the form of the Karinnes.

That's not the only difference.

The Faey nobles have force-multipliers. The Wikuni nobles do not, and hence they still believe that a suitably large and well equipped army can automatically win against a smaller one. They have yet to encounter weapons like machine guns, or explosive, or computers, or nukes, or planet busters. They find it difficult to conceive of cheap simple weapons that enable a a few poorly trained peasants to kill an entire army. Hence the wikuni nobles think they can start a war and the worst likely outcome is self imposed exile.

Dahnai lives in a world in which force-multipliers have been a part of warfare for thousands of years. She will be fully familiar with them, and know the vast majority of nobles probably have planet busters, whether they admit it or not. Every other noble house will know that too. They may squabble and spate with each other, but they know any serious outbreak of war runs the risk of escalation. It's like a pack of wolves, they'll growl and bite and bleed each other, but they will almost always back off before too much damage is done, because to not do so risks serious injury, and vulnerability to other pack members, and ultimately the survivable of the pack. Even with Jason helping her, Dahnai should find herself in the same situation as America government does today: Able to completely defeat all but four nations on the planet, but knowing in absolute certainty that it can't defend itself against suitcase nukes, and knowing that the only way to stop those is through diplomacy.

More the wikuni live in isolation. Even if they shot themselves in the foot with a long and protracted civil war, it would be a while before the rest of the world noticed. The Faey wouldn't have that chance. As soon as they were weak enough the other races would start taking chunks of their empire away, and would continue until it was all gone, or the remainder was small enough that the Faey could once again defend it.

Of course this all based on conventional military wisdom, and ignores Fel's magic plot wand.

dellstart wrote:

afrigeek wrote:Being that you're a Da'shar too according to the forum... you just had to defend the fact that being a Da'shar doesn't make someone hungry for power... lest we mark you as hungry for forum posts

Strangely, yet understandably, I have no comment...

Its hard to argue in the face of such a logical response , yet there are still some points that require clarification.

Whilst its true,That kerri approach is pretty as much as you have described , I cant help but think Dahanai 's need of power isn't only in the name of self preservation.As Zaa herself , said at the end of Subjugation, The faey are a Immature , arrogant, violent species , with the Kimodoris focus being on maintain the shifting alliances in the species to protect everyone else. That said, Jason is right to worry about Our Empress expansionist leanings or views ,which could l be brought about by purloined karrine technology.Thus the game that's constantly being played out between Dahanai and Jason .Added into that tension , is a mixture of love,affection and a little faey baby about to be born.

2)In some ways,The faey remind me of Great Houses of Rome with all the political intrigue, corruption and blackmail.
Yes , really great wholesome environment to grow up in. Thus , not sure that our Empresses grew up in the wonderful caring situation you might assume.Loyalty to the House yes, affection and love no. Look at her response to Jason after sending him the Mey.

I’m flattered you think so highly of me,” he told her honestly.
“I’m not trying to flatter you,” she told him. “I just wanted you to know that. I didn’t just decide to do this off the cuff, hon. I knew it might destroy our relationship, and yet I did it anyway. Please, remember that, and remember how much I like you. Let that tell you how deadly serious I think this situation is to do something like this, to risk the wrath of the only real friend I’ve ever had. And please, even if you do hate me, know I made this decision because I couldn’t see any other way. This was my last resort, Jason. Please understand that.”

For someone growing up in a loving kind trusting environment , That's a pretty telling sign , that all was not fun and games in her upbringing. Plus , we also find her need to secure her friends and family.The extended group of Imperial bodyguards that guard Jason for example , another sign of the deep need to keep safe someone , someone who has none else she cant really trust..

Your Vendari=Jason analogy hits it 100% on the head.She really does rule by his sufferance. as AnTi said so well , The alpha male in our situation needs all the it can get.

dellstart wrote:Its hard to argue in the face of such a logical response , yet there are still some points that require clarification.

Whilst its true,That kerri approach is pretty as much as you have described , I cant help but think Dahanai 's need of power isn't only in the name of self preservation.As Zaa herself , said at the end of Subjugation, The faey are a Immature , arrogant, violent species , with the Kimodoris focus being on maintain the shifting alliances in the species to protect everyone else. That said, Jason is right to worry about Our Empress expansionist leanings or views ,which could l be brought about by purloined karrine technology.Thus the game that's constantly being played out between Dahanai and Jason .Added into that tension , is a mixture of love,affection and a little faey baby about to be born.

2)In some ways,The faey remind me of Great Houses of Rome with all the political intrigue, corruption and blackmail.
Yes , really great wholesome environment to grow up in. Thus , not sure that our Empresses grew up in the wonderful caring situation you might assume.Loyalty to the House yes, affection and love no. Look at her response to Jason after sending him the Mey.

I’m flattered you think so highly of me,” he told her honestly.
“I’m not trying to flatter you,” she told him. “I just wanted you to know that. I didn’t just decide to do this off the cuff, hon. I knew it might destroy our relationship, and yet I did it anyway. Please, remember that, and remember how much I like you. Let that tell you how deadly serious I think this situation is to do something like this, to risk the wrath of the only real friend I’ve ever had. And please, even if you do hate me, know I made this decision because I couldn’t see any other way. This was my last resort, Jason. Please understand that.”

For someone growing up in a loving kind trusting environment , That's a pretty telling sign , that all was not fun and games in her upbringing. Plus , we also find her need to secure her friends and family.The extended group of Imperial bodyguards that guard Jason for example , another sign of the deep need to keep safe someone , someone who has none else she cant really trust..

Your Vendari=Jason analogy hits it 100% on the head.She really does rule by his sufferance. as AnTi said so well , The alpha male in our situation needs all the it can get.

you need to look at the context those events take place in. At that time Dahnai is on the cusp of civil war with 3 Highborn houses. Now you used the description of the Faey but not the full description that Zaa used.

They are an immature, arrogant, violent species. They have their bright spots, but they are also too dangerous to be left unattended. That is why we interact with them. The Kimdori work to keep them under control, to prevent them from boiling forth from their borders and waging war on everyone around them. By keeping them focused inward, it keeps the rest of the galaxy safe from them. It may seem cruel, but understand that as we keep them focused on each other, we also try to mitigate their activities, preventing them from warring with each other, holding a shifting peace within their species.

Left to their own devices the Faey wouldn't be infighting, it is forced on them by the Kimdori. This policy of the Kimdori caused the third civil war and the loss of the Karinnes.

Since the failure we suffered that was the Third Civil War, and the loss of our Karinne cousins, we have debated our methods and have decided to take a more active hand, should this situation rise again.

Now this part actually ties into the Mey incident. That incident happened after the Defiant became known to the Imperium. Before that point Dahnai was letting Jason have his space because the Tech of the Scimitar, while interesting, was not destabilizing. The Defiant destabilized the balance of power in the Imperium and with civil war looming and Jason taking the same exact stance as the old House Karinne Dahnai knew what would happen to him.

The Shovalle Empresses that sat on this throne before me always ignored the Karinnes, had let them play their games on their own, as long as they kept doing their research and feeding new ideas and new technology to the Imperium. They knew the Karinnes weren’t releasing everything, and that was one reason why they were destroyed. When war was declared, the first thing the Shovalles did was order the immediate and total destruction of Karis, even going so far as to leave their own territory undefended to muster a battle fleet big enough to do it. If Merrane hadn’t have gotten there first, the Shovalles would have been the ones to destroy Karis. But the Merranes did it because they couldn’t afford to let the Karinnes side with the Shovalles. Even then we knew that the Karinnes were much more dangerous than they pretended to be. We knew that whichever side they took was going to win the war because that side would have the Karinne telepaths and the Karinne technology, so they had to either be brought over or destroyed. If they weren’t going to side with the Seditionists, they were too dangerous to be allowed to survive. If you read history, you know that the first thing that happened at Karis was the destruction of the planet. After that, when the Shovalles showed up, the largest naval battle in Faey history that took place over the planet. Both sides had brought huge fleets to destroy the Karinnes, and they met head to head right there. That battle actually decided the war, because it seriously crippled the Loyalist fleet. The Loyalists won the battle, but they lost too many ships, and in the long run it cost them the war.

You see by not taking sides Jason is just setting himself up to become a target for everyone, but Jason is stubborn and wouldn't accept that so Dahnai had to club him over the head to get his attention. This in a way allows her to protect Jason, her children and possibly avert a civil war. This also led to him asking Zaa for advice which let him know that he could take sides and not make the same mistakes as his ancestors.

“And it is about to rise. There is much you can do to help without betraying your duties to the house, Jason. The first of which is to know that the Karinnes can take sides. Always before, their obsession with the Program blinded them to the realities of the Imperium. You are not so blind as they. If you do not want to give them Karinne technology, then use Karinne technology for them, but also keep it away from them.”

The final part is that Zaa respects Dahnai, not as an Empress but as a woman.

The Kimdori have seen the very same thing as Dahnai, who is a clever and capable woman whom I respect.

Now do you think that Zaa, who can from one touch know everything about someone, would respect a power hungry tyrant who was only concerned with herself?

dellstart wrote:Your Vendari=Jason analogy hits it 100% on the head.She really does rule by his sufferance. as AnTi said so well , The alpha male in our situation needs all the it can get.

People get confused over the 'alpha wolf' concept. It doesn't refer to the biggest or strongest or meanest, or the favored of the author, but the wolf that the other wolves chose to defer to because doing so is good for the pack. Jason's plan will effectively give him and Dahnai complete defacto control of interstellar trade within the Imperium. The other houses are unlikely to see that as a good idea for all sorts of reasons. Given some of the other things they've both done, and plan, it would be entirely reasonable for the Sain to rebel and decide that Dahnai is not a fit ruler.

My point is not that Dahnai needs more help from Jason, but that too much help will undermine her position.

Yes, it’ll be interesting to see how the rest of the Siann do react to the idea of Earth being set up as the center of a sector trading hub. I guess that Draconis already performs this function within the Faey Imperium and to a lesser extent also the House capitol worlds. The reliance on expensive Merrane controlled stargates and mysterious Karinne interdictors is going to be unsettling to the balance of power as it is. Then for House Karinne to be benefiting from potentially huge amounts of new galactic trade when hyperspace trade is greatly constrained by the interdictors and potentially spied upon by Merrane stargate “technicians”, there will be much unrest.

The houses seeking greater independence may very well see these acts as the beginnings of a Merrane-Karinne plan to remove them from effective power altogether. After all they will not be even able to travel within the Imperium without Merrane-Karinne consent.

Dahnai must somehow address these fears. I think that she has many more plans in motion that we don’t know of yet. Fel has perhaps hinted at this with the medically assisted pregnancy. Jason could offer the Siann a fair share of trading tax revenue, which may appease some.

The restriction of movement issue could well be the sticking point for any rebellion. I’m reminded of what happened when the British tried to force all trade in the Empire to go through London first. Smugglers made a tidy profit moving tea directly from India to the Americas and when the Crown cut the taxes to undercut the trade the loss of money led to an uprising in Boston. There is probably a lot of trade going on in the Imperium right now under the official radar, the loss of those revenues in not going to please any number of people.

expedient wrote:Yes, it’ll be interesting to see how the rest of the Siann do react to the idea of Earth being set up as the center of a sector trading hub. I guess that Draconis already performs this function within the Faey Imperium and to a lesser extent also the House capitol worlds. The reliance on expensive Merrane controlled stargates and mysterious Karinne interdictors is going to be unsettling to the balance of power as it is. Then for House Karinne to be benefiting from potentially huge amounts of new galactic trade when hyperspace trade is greatly constrained by the interdictors and potentially spied upon by Merrane stargate “technicians”, there will be much unrest.

The houses seeking greater independence may very well see these acts as the beginnings of a Merrane-Karinne plan to remove them from effective power altogether. After all they will not be even able to travel within the Imperium without Merrane-Karinne consent.

Dahnai must somehow address these fears. I think that she has many more plans in motion that we don’t know of yet. Fel has perhaps hinted at this with the medically assisted pregnancy. Jason could offer the Siann a fair share of trading tax revenue, which may appease some.

The restriction of movement issue could well be the sticking point for any rebellion. I’m reminded of what happened when the British tried to force all trade in the Empire to go through London first. Smugglers made a tidy profit moving tea directly from India to the Americas and when the Crown cut the taxes to undercut the trade the loss of money led to an uprising in Boston. There is probably a lot of trade going on in the Imperium right now under the official radar, the loss of those revenues in not going to please any number of people.

Hmm, something I think people are missing Merrane and Karinne are not the only builders of StarGates. They would only control the hub near Earth, I'm pretty sure all other houses have some type of gate systems setup that doesn't use Merrane gates.

Also while thinking about the above, why hasn't some house sold the plans for stargates to other empires for some major profit.

Hearly wrote:Hmm, something I think people are missing Merrane and Karinne are not the only builders of StarGates. They would only control the hub near Earth, I'm pretty sure all other houses have some type of gate systems setup that doesn't use Merrane gates.

Also while thinking about the above, why hasn't some house sold the plans for stargates to other empires for some major profit.

I don't think other houses make their own gates. I seem to remember that the gates used in the Imperium are built by M2 - as is much of the other military level technology. Now Jason mentioned that he would be able to build gates using Karine technology, but I'm guessing he didn't have the time to do it because he's devoting all of his resources to building the interdictors. However, I don't know if other houses have the resources and technological infrastructure to construct them. M2 is a _corporation_ albeit a house-owned corp. It would be akin to saying "I'm a good sized country, I need planes to get from here to there." If you are in the USA, you call up Boeing and say "I need a 737" and fork over the cash. If you are in the EU, you call EADS/Airbus and say "I need an A320" and fork over the cash. If you are in Madagascar, though... who do you call? Boeing or Airbus (I know there are a lot more companies here . . . work with me for a minute). If you don't have good relations with the countries in which those companies are based, you won't be able to buy the goods even if you have tons of cash. SO you are left with the challenge of building your own aircraft. You may have all the plans, and know how to do it, but you need the resources to do it now... skilled people, materials, processing equipment, facilities, infrastructure, etc. How long would it take to set that up? What would happen to your country while that was going on? Can you risk devoting the resources to that project and diverting them from other projects?

Many of the aspects of the Imperium that intrigue me lie in the macroeconomic and large scale socioeconomic interactions between star systems, houses, and the Imperium as a whole. I may be Duke Miraborn sitting in my palace, but if I need something, I'm going to source it from the lowest bidder and/or the company that can get me the best product... and chances are, that company will be in another house. If I piss off that house, or the Siann, or whatever, I may now have to pay a whole lot more to get that thing, or be unable to get it at all.

Getting back to stargates - we don't know if companies other than M2 can build them. It is really a State Secret, so I doubt anyone in a house other than Merrane will have access to that technology from a construction standpoint. If so, there is a huge risk in that if a house succeeds in breaking away, then that house could sell the plans to other races and everyone would be at risk.

THE THING IS WHILE THE KIMDORI DONT WANT THE FAEY to expand, they would have to the force out and keep out the skaa, alliance and consortium as while they too are expanding, the faey are tempered by the influence of the karrines, so systems would be joining the imperium or enter into an alliance similar to like the common weath with the empress at its head. all the the little single systems are not really capable of expanding and with indictors and gates they would be dependant on the imperium, they cant reallly expand and the empress would charge too much for a second gate, their only exit woud be earth, all trade everywhere would go through here, they would be tied eventually bound to the imperium, if only to be able to expand

There is at least one other company that makes Stargates:

Kumi’s eyes brightened. “That’s a fuckin’ brilliant idea!” she said. Vultech could undercut 2M and Seyalle Spatial and make a killing!

“Don’t ever doubt the pirate, babes!” she said with a laugh. “One Senalle Spatial MXK-378D Spatial Bridge!” she announced, throwing a handpanel onto the table. “Fully operational! We have to pick it up tomorrow!”
“Tomorrow?” Jason asked in surprise.
“You said you wanted it now,” she told him. “It’s being held on Menos IV.”
“Dorrane? Why would a Highborn house be selling a Stargate?”

In the first quote there is a Seyalle Spatial and in the second there is a Senalle Spatial, I believe this was just a spelling error on Fel's part. Kind of like how Sarraya's Husband has three different names in Firestaff.

On a different note that second quote illustrates Jason profound cluesness of the Imperium. Now why would a Highborn House on the verge of overthrowing the Empress in Subjugation sell such a very expensive piece of Tech. Could it be that they need money for a Rebellion....Nah that couldn't be it.

Dahnai will have to place stargates in all Faey controlled territories, if there aren't any there already, for the Imperial forces to protect systems from attack. Some houses may be able to afford to put more stargates in place but I understand that they are expensive. The problem may not be as bad as I first thought but it still means imposing a large expense on most of the noble houses to continue business as usual. That's assuming that they are trading under table (bets anyone?).

miraborn wrote:Many of the aspects of the Imperium that intrigue me lie in the macroeconomic and large scale socioeconomic interactions between star systems, houses, and the Imperium as a whole. I may be Duke Miraborn sitting in my palace, but if I need something, I'm going to source it from the lowest bidder and/or the company that can get me the best product... and chances are, that company will be in another house. If I piss off that house, or the Siann, or whatever, I may now have to pay a whole lot more to get that thing, or be unable to get it at all.

Yes there a number of missing pieces to the puzzle how the Faey society works.

boballab wrote:On a different note that second quote illustrates Jason profound cluesness of the Imperium. Now why would a Highborn House on the verge of overthrowing the Empress in Subjugation sell such a very expensive piece of Tech. Could it be that they need money for a Rebellion....Nah that couldn't be it.

Jason does seem uncomfortably uninformed, not least about what Dahnai is up to within the Imperium. He knows he has a number of enemies in the Siann, shouldn't he be querying the Kimdori more on the states of various plots? Is this why Dahnai is forcing him to go to court, as he is so clueless, or is it more about flaunting her alliance with Karinne? Miaari is his intelligence officer, are they just getting too distracted by the external threat of the Consortium as they did with the Alliance and Skaa, or perhaps they really don't pose much of a threat to Karinne currently.

here the issues, in two months max, faey spaces will be safe, consortium fleet will be forced into some kind of action,, in that time they would be unable to refit all the tech to themselves let alone manufacture for the weak guys, in the time consortium will hit targets, these soft targets will be devestated or wiped out, the alliance and skaa would try to step in to claim them, under the lie that they are helping to rebuild, the imperium should stepin saying they are allies with the same enemy. also imagin all karine ships with biogenenic relays, carrying a generation telepathicly joined, imagin their power used against the enemy