Sennadar Forums

Comparing phpBB registration form at http://home.plebian.net/forum-phpbb/
and YaBB Edit Profile at http://sennadar.plebian.net/forum/YaBB.pl (to know what modules would one need):

• There is no Name field in phpBB, i.e. the displayed name that people will see (which might be different from registration nickname, and may not need to observe its constraints). Not very important, especially if one can change his/her username in phpBB.
• No Gender, Birthdate and Website Title fields in phpBB
• MSN Messenger in phpBB, but no place for custom Instant Messnger (like for example Jabber, or e.g. some country specific like very popular in Poland Gadu-Gadu (GG) messenger). I don't know about the possibility of sending messages via (at least some) Instant Messengers from the board.
• No Personal Text and Avatar/Custom Avatar in phpBB, although they might be available after registering. Maybe the lack of Avatar is a question of phpBB configuration.
• Additional Occupation and Interests field in phpBB.
• Instead of drop-down (combo) box with date formats in YaBB, there is geeky text input for entering data format in PHP date() format in phpBB. I have seen module/hack for phpBB changing that.
• Timezone inetsad of Time Offset: less comfortable, but allows for 1.5h offsets. There is additional problem with DST (Daylight Saving Time), we have no such problem for YaBB if you are observing the same DST rules as the board server timezone. YaBB sets difference from server time, phpBB sets the difference from GMT (UTC), without DST. Currently there is no way to have in PHP on Windows "true" timezones like Europe/Warsaw, or  Australia/Sydney (there is TZ environmental variable hack for Unices). You can have true timezone in Perl, but YaBB didn't used it.
• Much more Yes/No options in phpBB.

OK, OK --- I surrender!

I havn't been doing anything with the forum conversion since I posted in this thread last -- personal+work stuff is interfering.

I promise I'll try and work on it soon.

I've also re-thought the licencing situation, and I'll release under a GPL or GPL-like licence, and put it on Sourceforge.

spec8472 wrote:I haven't been doing anything with the forum conversion since I posted in this thread last -- personal+work stuff is interfering.

If you haven't time for working on conversing forum engine to hpBB (e.g. becaouse RL interrupts), we do understand. I had some free time on my hands, so I have decided to post these two post to help... if you want it. I'd rather not have send ideas about extending phpBB after the full conversion and moving to new engine (to make conversing again necessary).

So, take your time. It would be nice to have board migrated to phpBB, or adding support for RDBMS to YaBB, but (as expressed somewhere in this thread) it is not really necessary. At least for now

Sincerely yours.

By the way, if we won't be moving to phpBB in the not so far off future, maybe upgrading YaBB is to be considered?

What would we like to have in the new board (apart from moving the contents of this board/forum to the new software) and accompanying "backup" site?

My propositions are:

• For Forum (aka BBS). Reproducing (almost) all the tags from YaBB, including those rarely used like [s], [ftp], [email], [table], [sup]. Reproducing the fields from preferences and profile, including number of post related 'Rank" and possible custom title, homepage with title (description), timezone or equivalent (like difference to server time - it would be hard to do proper timezone in PHP, although in Unix it could be faked using system environmental variable TZ). Searching capabilities (maybe even better and faster). Perhaps threaded conversation and nested quotes. Avatars, custom avatars and their resizing. Custom description and signature. Private Messaging (PM) system and notifications (to PM, and to e-mail). Members by number, by letter and Top 15 Posters. Maybe (just maybe) hierarchical links. If possible status and links to messaging systems (ICQ, YIM, AIM, MSN, Jabber; custom/local ones like Gadu-Gadu or Tlen.pl). If possible and realistic status and handle on IRC. Are Message Icons to be dropped? Spoiler tag and rot13 coding. This list is to be continued.
• For backup site. Some simple CMS (Content management System) to allow Fel to upload files to the site (maybe password authenticated + cookie?). Chapters in DOC (original?), RTF and HTML (simple) formats. HTML cleanup of older chapters/books. ZIP files with DOC or HTML for full books. Perhaps copy the trick from Baen to allow to remember the paragraph one is in, without relying on browser support for Place Bookmarks or Save Session (use cookies to go directly to the place we finished reading, if it is possible, maybe with some kind of Save Place button). No dangling links (but maybe grayed out text for chapters to come). Information on newest chapter for series and date/time of posting it.
• For compendium. Some simple Wiki system (Wiki definitions by Wiki.org, Wikipedia and Google) for ease of wrinting "The FelBooks Compendium", including "A Guide to Magic", "Gods of Sennadar", "List of Characters", "Races of Sennadar" and Timelines for books/chapters. Which Wiki engine to choose: it probably depends on what language can we use (PHP, Perl, Python, Java/J2EE), what database we want to use (flat files, MySQL, other), and what features we want to have (e.g. for timelines), if we want to be able to upload files (e.g. images: maps)? We can populate it from existing Lochar compendium (being mainly A Guide to Magic) and from Fel (and Lochar) answers/posts here on forum. Maybe that would be the place for stories from Sennadar; or maybe they should go to CMS system.
• Other. Maybe some kind of web client for IM (Instant Messaging) system like IRC: either PHP:IRC (which can be plugged both into phpBB and YaBB), CGI:IRC (which is Perl/CGI client), JPilot jIRC (shareware Java applet) or PJIRC (freeware Java applet). Or if we for example move to Jabber/XMPP some web client for this.

OK, Impressive list there ShadowHawk

- Forum Software Conversion.
Yes, I've been slack.  When will it be completed? Not sure - if someone else wants to have a go at converting from YaBB (NOT YaBB SE) to PHPbb, let me know.

There's a new faster/bigger host awaiting the conversion.

It looks like someone (CanisD/Greymist?) has already upgraded YaBB to the latest version.

- CMS
Soon! For the moment Fel can upload files to the Wiki, I believe.

What CMS software were you thinking of, btw?

- Wiki
Done! Put all your Sennadar Knowledge here: http://wiki.sennadar.plebian.net/  
-- this is on the newer, faster webhost (Debian, Apache).

You need to register an account on there to be able to add or edit pages, and no - there's no integration between this forum software (or even the new one) and the Wiki software, sorry.

No Spam, No Stupid stuff

- Chat/IM:
Jabber: I can do a Jabber server too (the new webhost has this as an option), I havn't investigated it at all, sorry.

PHP IRC? Perhaps.

spec8472 wrote:It looks like someone (CanisD/Greymist?) has already upgraded YaBB to the latest version.

Hmmm... at the bottom of the page it still says "Powered by YaBB 1 Gold - SP 1.3.1!"

spec8472 wrote:- Wiki
Done! Put all your Sennadar Knowledge here: http://wiki.sennadar.plebian.net/  
-- this is on the newer, faster webhost (Debian, Apache).

You need to register an account on there to be able to add or edit pages, and no - there's no integration between this forum software (or even the new one) and the Wiki software, sorry.

Thanks a lot, Spec8472. As to integration: could you put at least link to Sennadar Wiki at "backup" site, i.e. http://senndar.plebian.net page? I don't know if it would be woth effort putting lik to Sennadar Wiki in the header/menu, for exmple between Search and Members, for example as Wiki (or if we change the logo for SennadarWiki from default MediaWiki one to custom one, replacing the sunflower by shaeram, using this image instead). You are most welcome to edit/correct those images.

Attention: The images for Wiki are hosted on my site, which is ocassionally down. If you don't see the image after this sentence, then my site is off-line, or I have changed file names.

Edit: changed links to images to the copies hosted on Sennadar Wiki.

About YaBB Redirection Script, which redirects the user to the new converted phpBB Forum, and if possible - the correct thread/forum requested.

There are few mutual disjoint possibilities of doing such request from the browser point of view, i.e. I am not talking here about how to write such script.

• HTML Redirect/Refresh. Create new page containg HTML refresh to new page <meta http-equiv="refresh" content="1;http://new-url-to-resource"> where 1 specifies number of seconds before redirect. The body of the page should contain information about redirect, including the new URL. This is most probably what we don't want to do..
• HTTP Redirection. The header of the page should contain '<tt>Location: </tt>new-absolute-url<tt>
  </tt>'. The code returned should be one of the Redirection 3xx HTTP return codes, most probably '<tt>301 Moved Permanently</tt>'.
• URL rewrite. Configure Apache in such way (using Perl or PHP script) that old URLs get redirected to new message board URLs. The disadvantage of such method is that it looks like old URLs are good (are present in location bar - rewriting URLs is internal to server, and not visible in browser), while new ones are preferred.

By the way, one might consider using Apache's <tt>mod_rewrite</tt> (or similar solution for URL rewrite) anyway, to make URLs look better: see for example Wikipedia (and compare it to Sennadar Wiki) or the new SOL URLs. To make URLs look better, hiding implementation details and making them permanent (Cool URIs don't change)

Edit: added info about <tt>mod_rewrite</tt>

Here are some my ideas, thoughts and wishes about new and hopefuly somewhen before Hell makes phase transition transition to The New Board Software(tm) (also known under name phpBB 2.x BTW. don't fill obliged to fill those wishes (via installing mods or modyfying sources); although it certainly would be nice.

• I hope that the new board software would [censored] remember read posts, and not mark old ones [new!] due to some bug or other weird [s]crea[/s]^H feature. It would be nice to mark somehow thread and posts with updated (modified) posts. Notification of new posts to watched thread, but also updates to watched post or thread, via e-mail, board build-in private messaging or separate private area (user box; user page).
• Moving all old information: posts, threads, sections, user profiles and user infos to new board without any loss would be very, very nice. Maybe moving also older WWWBoard contents.
• I'd like to have better searching interface (if not searching capabilities), maybe in some mode keyword based (possibility to use keywords), or at least better (for this board) default values for searching.
  
  Searching the body of the messages, with the subject (and/or thread subject) containing given phrase, by specified user or/and in thread started by specified user, in specified range of time (default: all messages, from the beginning till now), is specified section (by drop-down list perhaps, or marked in checklist (plus all); I think checklist is better - YaBB has such interface, but it could be improved).
  
  The results of search presented either as posts (messages) or as threads (phpBB does that), sorted by title or date; in case of posts also sorting by thread and board/section/forum.
• Integration with Sennadar Wiki, main backup site - at least some links in always present toolbar or navigation box. At best provide e.g. [wiki] tag for linking (in innerwikilink no-piped style) to the article on Sennadar Wiki).
  
  I don't think that having some IRC web client (integration with IRC) would help to have more activity and discussions on #sennadar channel, NewNet network.
• Good support for spoilers: those in posts body, but also (if possible) those in thread subjects.
• Maybe (just maybe) some repository for user provided links, with titles, categories (i.e. hierachical), descriptions, keywords/labels, reporting broken links, popularity counters (clicking count), links rating and such. Maybe links searching. Not really neccessary thing.

Edit: expanded ideas about searching and search ideas.

Here are some my ideas, thoughts and wishes for the story site (i.e. the one with the books) - http://www.sennadar.com, sennadar.plebian.net.  BTW. don't fill obliged to fill those wishes; they are wishes after all.

To be continued...

• Short description of the page, copyrights; in the footer contact to the webmaster (just in case).
  
  Links (ordinary links, and not via submit button) to at least Sennadar Forum and Sennadar Wiki. Perhaps links to other backup sites (Yahoo! Group FelBooks, Lochar backup site, maybe Vysnu/Koal; maybe even mine).
• Links to books, and to chapters in those books, with not written yet chapters grayed out (or marked in some other way). NO links to nonexisting chapters. Maybe some news section at the main page (e.g. Date, Chapter No of Title finished: HTML, DOC - links), and Last updated/Finished at each book page. RSS/Atom sindication would be much overkill, I think.
• Some way for Fel to automaticaly upload the files, be it HTML form upload (perhaps protected with password), IRC bot accepting DCC SEND from Fel, or some script extracting new chapters from e-mail. It would be nice to have automatic conversion to other formats, like lightweight HTML (see below) and maybe RTF.
• Formats: chapters: original Fel upload (i.e. DOC files), perhaps RTF format, HTML format (see below). Maybe simple text format, with simple markup for *bold*, /italic/ and _underline_, either in ASCII or in UTF-8.
  For completed books the whole book in ZIP format: zipped HTML files and zipped DOC files, maybe also in PDF format (with table of contents, and URL to original site).
• HTML version Copy it from Baen, with framed version remembering (in cookies) last read (last mouseover) paragraph. The chapter pages should have ordinary (not graphical) links to previous and next chapters, to framed version, and to table of contents for the book. The header should have also appropriate LINK elements. The TOC (Table of Contents) pages should have link to the book list in series and/or to the main page.
  
  Perhaps we could have something similar to EWP, with remembered (in user account) last read chapter: we could extend it to remembering (if possible/after save) last read paragraph. Maybe add the possibility of creating (maybe limited number) of book/chapter/paragraph named bookmarks (e.g. for further extending Sennadar Wiki).

See also: Sennadar.com  sticky thread, although many of wishes there is/would be fulfilled by Sennadar Wiki.

Started to do some more work on the conversion...
I'm focussing on getting the forum content across properly, without worrying about additional features (like website titles, birthdays etc).

Staging is up now: http://staging-sennadar.plebian.net/forum/index.php

Known problems as at time of post:
[s]* BBCode is showing up, without being interpreted (and yes, the ":" is showing up twice, oops - but that's not the cause) [/s] Yay! Fixed! The problem was I was generating a 10 digit BBCodeID, rather than a 9 digit BBCodeID (argh!), plus PHPbb is rather picky about where you put it's "cheatcode" BBCodeID - In the end I had to do a total rebuild of the ConvertBBCode function, and implemented a two pass conversion

Updated: BBCode mostly works,
[s]#1 If people put redundant URL tags around a URL (with no parameters), it borks. [/s]
[s]#2 Bold tags in Signatures don't seem to need a BBCodeID ... weird. [/s] Fixed
#3 Color tags don't get converted properly, but I CBF'ed trying to set up yet another form of conversion for this.
#4 Codes that don't exist under PHPbb (strike out, glow, etc) get converted, but PHPbb ignores them.

[s]* Some people's posts are showing up as "Guest", although not all. For example in this thread, MISER's initial post is attributed to him, but the final reply by MISER is from guest. [/s] -- Fixed.


[s]* "Last Post" on the front page of the forums shows a different post than what it should be. (That's been fixed - i think - in the conversion code) [/s]

[s]* Stickies arn't stuck.  Sooon[/s]

(BTW: To save time, I've stopped generating and uploading the word-index until I've fixed the above problems)

Updated.

Comparison of the current YaBB engine here and the new phpBB engine at staging arena:

• Main Page.
  • [s]The ordering of section in phpBB is wrong (first FAQ, then General, while it should be vice versa), but this is probably due to limits of converter.[/s] Got corrected
  • In YaBB there is a list of moderators for each forum, not necessary needed as it is the same for each forum; [s]there is 'Usergroups' link in phpBB which probably has similar function.[/s] phpBB has the link to Moderators usergorup.
  • In YaBB we have number of all messages in inbox (Private Messenging subsystem), while phpBB shows most probably the number of new messages which, I think, is a better solution.
  • In the toolbar of YaBB there is Notification tool with list of all notified/watched threads (topics) and the way to unsubscribe them. phpBB lacks such central place, and I didn't found the mod/hack/add-on for that. On the other hand the notification in YaBB doesn't seem to be working: I had received no notification of changes, neither via e-mail nor via PM.
  • In Forum Statistics at the bottom YaBB has the number of topics (threads) which phpBB lacks. The Last Modified link is solved differently: YaBB has the link leadig directly to last post in the whole forum (which doesn't update new posts mark for forums now), while phpBB has separate link for each thread. The phpBB solution is I think better, but if adding the link to the very last post isn't to much a work, go for it. YaBB has 10 last posts in the forum, which I haven't used at all, while phpBB has special searches links: posts since last visit, your posts, unanswered posts, which I think is more useful. The phpBB engine shows the nicknames of administrator in Users's Online list in different color; YaBB lacks this nice feature.
• Forum View
  • There is a difference in navigation for multipage forums and multipage threads. In YaBB we have <tt>1  2 3 ... 14</tt> links for forum, while in phpBB we have <tt>1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Next</tt> (perhaps all the pages). We have list of all pages for YaBB, and <tt>1,..., 4, 5, 6</tt> in phpBB. If I remember correctly there is mod for phpBB for customizing this. The difference in solution for fowum and for threads in phpBB is understandable if we take into account that threads in forums are ordered last modified (last added) first, while messages in threads are oldest first (in order of posting). phpBB has nice Viev Latest Posts link for each thread.
  • YaBB marks post modified lately as Today; there is mod pof phpBB which does that. YaBB shows forums hierachy as a tree branch, while phpBB shows it in breadcrumbs style (link.1 > link.1.2 > link.1.2.1). YaBB shows forum description in forum view; perhaps there is some mod for phpBB which does that. phpBB has jump to forum form, which YaBB lacks. YaBB has thread icons, but they are not really necessary; usually the generic one is used (although there is probably some custom thread icon mod for phpBB).
• Thread View
  • Pagination. In YaBB we have <tt>1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 </tt> for pages, in phpBB we have <tt> Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next</tt>. I wonder what happens in longer threads... Again, there is phpBB module for customizing it.
  • GUI In YaBB we have tree branch view of hierarchy, in phpBB we have breadcrumbs for forums, and title of thread above.
  • In authors "box" in YaBB we have custom rank name, rank (the stars), avatar which can be custom image, custom text (short), links via small images to Instant Messengers (showing status, linking to sending message e.g via Yahoo Messenger!), profile, WWW, e-mail and send message via forum IM system; finally gender and the number of posts. In phpBB we have in "author's box" only date joinded (not present in YaBB), number of posts and location (not presenet in YaBB). The links to profile, forum IM system, WWW and IM (like AOL or Yahoo Messenger!, with link to send the message, but without showing the status I think; perhaps there are mods for that) are at the bottom of the post instead. The name of user is link to the profile in YaBB; IIRC there is mod for phpBB for that. There is no link to e-mail in phpBB; maybe that is for better (hint: spam)...
  • Notify of replies/Watch this topic for replies is only at the bottom of the page in phpBB. There are no Send Topic nor Print in phpBB; perhaps they are available as mods.
  • The remove/delete link is shown as simply x  in phpBB; the first post in thread gets special treatment. The Modify/Edit link appears only for the posts you CAN modify in phpBB, which is nice.
  • There is no post number in phpBB, but there is link directly to the post, which YaBB lacks. The phpBB staging area doesn't show Last Modified Date, but that is the matter of conversion tool; additionally in phpBB you have the number of article edits.
  • There is no New Topi link in YaBB thread view, nor back to top links in each post in "author's box".
  • phpBB lacks number of reads, which YaBB shows after thread name (in first post) as <tt>(Read 14047 times)</tt>

To be continued...
Edit: corrected things due to conversion, configuration, and things I haven't noticed in phpBB

Comparison of the current YaBB engine here and the new phpBB engine at staging arena, part 2:

It looks like the phpBB page title support is somewhat lacking; in YaBB the page title tells you the name of the forum, the name of profile you view etc. It is very useful in bookmarks and history.

• Profile Page
  • In YaBB we have Name, Posts No., Position (custom text), Date Registered (with time). In phpBB we have only Date Registered (without time) and Posts No; additionally there is posts statistic on posts: percentage of total posts, average posts per day. It looks like there is Rank (Position in YaBB nomenclature) below avatar in phpBB.
  • YaBB shows the names and the status of the Instant Messengers for ICQ, AIM and YIM. phpBB has only buttons for IM: MSN Messenger (which YaBB lacks), Yahoo Messenger (YIM), AIM, ICQ. There are mods for phpBB which shows the status (on-line/off-line).
  • Email addres is shown in YaBB and uses <tt>mailto:</tt> or is <tt>hidden</tt>. In phpBB we have email button, which links to phpBB form to send an email. User's email is not revealed; you can send a copy to yourself. What then show your email option in phpBB profile options is for, hmm?
  • You can sedn Private Message (via forum) on both engines.
  • The website is in YaBB shown under URL Title, and links to URL Location; in phpBB we have only latter. I wonder if there is phpBB mod for that...
  • We have avatar and custom text (avatar text) in YaBB; only avatar in phpBB. Avatar text is converted to Interests field in phpBB profile.
  • We have Location, Gender and Age (calculated from birthday date) in YaBB. From those, only Location is present in phpBB. Additionally, there are Occupation and Interests fields in phpBB.
  • Show Posts: From YaBB profile you can show last 5, 10, 50 or All posts of the user. The equivalent in phpBB is link to search of all the messages by user. The result is divided into pages.
  • YaBB profile page shows if the user is on-line. There is no such functionality in unmodded phpBB.
  • The phpBB page has generic page subtitle: Viewing profile, WITHOUT the profile name, like in YaBB (View profile of nickname). I hope there is phpBB mod for this. Additionally, there is link to modify the profile in YaBB, which phpBB lacks (even for your own profile)
• Posting on Forums; differences in BBcode
  • phpBB lacks [s]strikethru[/s] [s} code, but there is mod for that. YaBB has [glow} and [shadow} codes, both not working; at least not in Mozilla. YaBB has also [move} code (translating into <marquee>) but I think it shoudn't be used at all. And I think it wasn't used in any post here.
    YaBB has also [tt} code for teletype/typewriter (monospace) font (I think there is phpBB mod for that), and [sub} and [sup} codes which againg phpBB unmodded lacks; although I don't think the latter was used here anytime.
  • YaBB has paragraph formatting codes [pre} - for unformatted, [left}, [right} and [center} for justification.
  • Both YaBB and phpBB has [quote} and [code} codes, but they are somewhat different. YaBB [quote} with parameter has rather strict syntax if you want it to work, but it gives link to the parent (cited, quote) article; phpBB lack this AFAIK. The phpBB's [code} uses typewriter font. Both creates boxes named Quote: and Code: respectively.
  • YaBB has code for tables, which gets layed out in small (smaller) font, and without the lines between cells and around the table.
  • YaBB has [font} code for changing the font style (family), while phpBB has [size} code, which is probably more important. Perhaps it is possible to use YaBB [font} code for changing the font size.
  • Both YaBB and phpBB has [color} code, although with different naming of default palette of colors. The phpBB tool for entering color is better, as it shows the name of color in the color. Both accepts hexcolour (e.g. #ff00ff), although this option isn't mentioned in YaBB manual.
  • YaBB has more codes for entering links and embedding objects. It has [ftp} and [email}, which phpBB lacks. Additionally it has [flash} for embedding flash movies; not that anybody used or wil use that ability. Also phpBB [url} code tries to be too smart for it's own good: it accepts, I think, only http:// and ftp:// protocols; it rejects mailto: (pseudo-)protocol, and does not accept raw e-mail address as hyperlink. But it does accept irc:// pseudoprotocol. So perhaps it has troubles only with non-hierarchical protocols. Both YaBB and phpBB converts content of [url} tag without the protocol specified, but starting with www. into proper link. YaBB converts everything else into relative link (relative to the main page URL), while phpBB doesn't render [url} code. I think YaBB is better in that domain. Perhaps some mod for phpBB is in question...
  • phpBB has the code for entering numbered lists, which YaBB lacks. It has also direct link for BBcode description, while in YaBB you must go thru the Help pages.
  • phpBB doesnt understand following emoticons:

    Code: Select all

     ;D >:( ??? ::) :-[ :-x :-/ :-* :'(

    ;D >:( ??? ::) :-[ :-X :-/ :-* :'( On the other hand phpBB has many "named" emoticons like The rendering of remainding YaBB emoticons can be added through phpBB emoticon "packs", and/or manually uploading an icon and associated text. i.e ":)" -> smiley.gif
    As you see there seems to be an error in YaBB [code} processing; the first smiley shouldn't be rendered.
  • Both YaBB and phpBB have options for disabling smileys and for notifying of replies. phpBB additionally has the option of turning off the BBCode, and of not including signature. Additionally it looks like an ordinary user can make thread sticky, or announcement in phpBB.
  • In phpBB you can add poll to your thread. It is quite a nice feature I think.
  • YaBB has message icon, quite unnecessary eye-candy for me. It also requires the subject to be filled; phpBB should do it too (some mod?).

As YaBB lacks escaping codes, the examples of codes are done with curly closing paren instead of closing bracket, e.g. [code}

A question: would you like the source code of the HTML version of Sennadar Books files word wrapped (at 80 columns), not wrapped, or it doesn't matter?

Pro wrapped: you can view it using an ordinary editor, even lacking word wrapping feature. Grep finds the line the expression is in - you can use option for showing the neighbourhood.

Con wrapped: takes a little less place. KWord (which gives nice light HTML) returns non wrapped source. Grep finds the whole paragraph (<p>...</p>). But the fact that KWord returns non-wrapped paragraphs isn't much of importance, as I still need to edit HTML source a bit, to correct page title, add links, copyright, stylesheets etc.