Sennadar Forums

  Well really seem to started of something here.

Well i agree that miranda is definately a bright spot in our expedition team
 But looking at what canisD has wriiten can it be possible that / or it possible the spirits can travel between worlds without any restriction or they can travel to the astral world and then to their home planet under normal circumstances (unless an evil god is stopping them from leaving ) :-[ though this does pop up another question why is the One stopping them from leaving . It their being trapped in this world increasing his / her power

Miranda is the only one that can get them home without outside help.

Phandebrass can use a gate spell ONLY with the approval of the Elder Gods.  Niami has to arrange it with Ayise before Phandebrass can use the gate spell, or it won't work.

This is because a Wizard's Gate spell does NOT send them to the open gateway which  Spyder guards.  That gate opens to the Astral, which was how Miranda is able to get them home (by getting them into the Astral and then "physically" travelling to the gateway to Sennadar).  Phandebrass can open the destination side of his gate spell ANYWHERE he wants, even a place he's never been before.

That's why the spells won't work anymore.  If they simply sent them in through the gate in Haven, they would work without outside intervention.  The Elder gods have to life the restriction on gates before Phandebrass can get them home.

Now...about Tarrin.  As a Priest, Tarrin cannot do it.  He has no Priest powers on Pyrosia outside the simplest of spells.  As a Wizard, he cannot do it, because he lacks the training to cast the spell.

But, as a demi-god...yes, he could open a passage into the Astral, and get them home, if and only if he is in his "godly" form, like he was when he fought the shadow of Val.  The divine power he has now is nowhere near enough to do something like that.  Breaching dimensional barriers takes a great deal of power.

There, I hope that settles things.  ;)

  Umm...

  Everything is clear now...

  Except...

*deep breath*

   If a real powerfull priest can open a gate to Astral and Tarrin needs his full power to do it, does it mean Tarrin (as is) is less powerful than a powerful priest, who only get to use a part of his/her patron-gods power?
   What I'm asking is this: Is Tarrin wrong in presuming his equality in a fight with a younger god? I mean, if Tarrin is less powerful than the powerful priest, does it mean that the power a god can call upon the material plane less than that of a powerful priest, or is Tarrin wrong?

  And...

  If a god is spread out over many dimensions (thats why they can't call upon all their power in the material plane, right?(Btw, is the soul also on the material plane?)), how does those dimensions fit into all the world-dimension. Are all those god-dimesions part of the world-dimensions or do they streach into another axis?
  What andout the soul then? If its not part of the material dimension, is it then on one of the god-dimensions (If it is, why couldn't then Val attack Tarrin on this dimension?), or has it got its own spirit-dimensions in yet another axis of reaily? If the souls got an own spirit-dimension, how can then the gods of death get to them?
   Is that why gods' souls are destroyd when thay die, because they're not part of the spirit-dimension?

   A bit more...

   In summoning the spirit of an elemental, isn't that breaking the dimensional barrier, with relatively little power? Or is it the spirit-dimension here also, that you can go thru it?
   But why can't the spirits The One caught go to the spirit-dimension then?

   But...

   What about demons and otherwordly weapons? Is it because when they enter another world-dimension (or is this just sennadar and pyrosia?) they get spread out on some god-dimensions also?
   And is that why priest-magic can harm them, because it is also in part from thet god-dimension? If that is the case, then why doesn't somebody who leavs his/her world-dimension and return get spread out on many dimensions?
   What about Tarrin & Co. (or just Tarrin) in Pyrosia? Can only otherwordly weapons harm them? And if not, why? Or if there is another reason to the demons invureability, what is it?

   Plus...

   The Weave. If it is thru the weave the gods grant their priests magick does that mean that the weave connects the god-dimensions with the material-dimension? And if that is so does that mean Niami has a different powerallocation than the other gods?
   If Niami removes the weave from the other gods is it then removed from the material-dimension also? If it isn't can't then the gods give power to their priests thru the material plane? And if Niami removes the weave, what happens t Miranda power? Or can she accsess her power thru her special link to Kikkali?
   Why does smaller priest spells from younger gods work in other worlds if the weave isn't there? Or is it? But that would mean that Tarrin should be able to do priestmagick in Pyrosia, or?

   Just a bit more...

   What about wizards magic? It comes from another dimension into Sennadra even though Sennadar is blocked? Does it come thru the gate to the Astral och maybe the spirit-dimension?


   I'm getting out of breath (the keyboard is getting hot to touch) so I will hold of the bulk of my questions until later.

Hey this is my take on the questions, it could be wrong.  I just like to play around with ideas.  Don't take any of my answers as cannon, it's just speculation/postulation.

   If a real powerfull priest can open a gate to Astral and Tarrin needs his full power to do it, does it mean Tarrin (as is) is less powerful than a powerful priest, who only get to use a part of his/her patron-gods power?

Miranda is more powerful than mearly a real powerful priest.  She is the living icon of her goddess, she has a special link with her goddess and who knows what stuff that allows.

   What I'm asking is this: Is Tarrin wrong in presuming his equality in a fight with a younger god? I mean, if Tarrin is less powerful than the powerful priest, does it mean that the power a god can call upon the material plane less than that of a powerful priest, or is Tarrin wrong?

He's also presuming that when fighting a younger god, his sword would turn him into a god who doesn't know how to use his power fully.  Like the battle against Val, and when in that state, he can open up portals like Fel said.

  If a god is spread out over many dimensions (thats why they can't call upon all their power in the material plane, right?(Btw, is the soul also on the material plane?)), how does those dimensions fit into all the world-dimension. Are all those god-dimesions part of the world-dimensions or do they streach into another axis?

The way I see it, there are multiple dimensions beyond 3/4 in a reality.  And then there are multiple realities.  The gods reside in all the dimensions in one reality, but a god usually stays in one reality, unless there is a copy of him in another.  This is totally based on my belief/opinion.  Very minimal support for this one from just the books.

What andout the soul then? If its not part of the material dimension, is it then on one of the god-dimensions (If it is, why couldn't then Val attack Tarrin on this dimension?), or has it got its own spirit-dimensions in yet another axis of reaily? If the souls got an own spirit-dimension, how can then the gods of death get to them?

I think the soul reside on the same dimension/reality as the physical body.  Usually within the body.  When a soul is freed from the body, it is still in the material plane.  Hence no need for the spirit dimension/the other questions you posed ...  Of course this could totally not fit with what Fel is planning, so it's a pending answer.

Is that why gods' souls are destroyd when thay die, because they're not part of the spirit-dimension?

This answer is built upon the Xanth series idea but different.  Gods are souls.  When a soul is destroyed it gets dissipated and dispersed, unless you got a soul trap ready to suck up all those peices and contain them.  After time, the pieces would coalesce once again to form the soul.  The god's physical being is totally manifested through the icon which is built by the power of the god over time.

Hence why gods needs the icon, and without it they don't have a connection to the material world.  Hence why Miranda has all her preistly powers in another reality, she is a living icon.  So if Miranda's god has followers in the reality Miranda is in, the priests there would probably have the same powers as the priests in Sennadar.

In summoning the spirit of an elemental, isn't that breaking the dimensional barrier, with relatively little power? Or is it the spirit-dimension here also, that you can go thru it?

If it's so low power, you try summoning a spirit of an elemental!  Lol, I always thought it was a high power spell.  And plus it's a non-physical portal, just the spirit needs to get through.  Since it takes a lot more energy to bring matter across a reality barrier than energy.  And spirits are mostly comprised of energy.  :-D

But why can't the spirits The One caught go to the spirit-dimension then?

What spirit dimension?  The spirits are trapped in the material plane.  I wonder if Pandelbrass has enough power to breach a God's blockade.

What about demons and otherwordly weapons? Is it because when they enter another world-dimension (or is this just sennadar and pyrosia?) they get spread out on some god-dimensions also?

Maybe Fel had meant the demon dimension?  Like wood from Pyroasia can't harm the demon still because the wood isn't from the demon dimension.  Before Tarrin only know about Sennadar, and other dimension.  And just thought all other dimensions were the same, and didn't know the items had to come specifically from the demon dimension to harm the demons?  Like krypton fragments can hurt superman, pieces of Pluto won't do diddly to Superman, but in a sense you can call krypton pieces, other-worldly rock.  And only other-worldly rock can hurt superman.

And is that why priest-magic can harm them, because it is also in part from thet god-dimension? If that is the case, then why doesn't somebody who leavs his/her world-dimension and return get spread out on many dimensions?

Eh?  sounds like you already got a little dimensional system setup and this question pertains to that specifically.  I wouldn't know the answer to this because I'm no expert on your system.. I'm just an expert on my system. hehe.

What about Tarrin & Co. (or just Tarrin) in Pyrosia? Can only otherwordly weapons harm them? And if not, why? Or if there is another reason to the demons invureability, what is it?

Answered previously.  They are normal, they don't have demon like attributes because they aren't demons from the demon dimension.

The Weave. If it is thru the weave the gods grant their priests magick does that mean that the weave connects the god-dimensions with the material-dimension? And if that is so does that mean Niami has a different powerallocation than the other gods?

Gods can use weavespinner magic.  Gods icon is in the material plane.  When mortals ask for something to be done, the Gods through their icon, long distance cast certain spells.  Hence the difference with priest/sorcerer magic.  The long distance casting restricts it to certain types of spells, so the gods have to do a whole other set of spells which sorcerers don't use.  Since sorcerers can't cast long distancely, don't have enough power to do so, and why would they want to change something half way around the world which they probably don't know about?  So if Niami cuts out the weave, none of the gods can give the priests their magics because that support is gone.  Godly or not, Gods would have to make personal appereances to do godly magic to supplement the unworking priestly ones.  And no god would do that, their icon's are suceptable to getting destroyed.

If Niami removes the weave from the other gods is it then removed from the material-dimension also? If it isn't can't then the gods give power to their priests thru the material plane? And if Niami removes the weave, what happens t Miranda power? Or can she accsess her power thru her special link to Kikkali?

All of the weave would be gone, no magic, like the earth you are on now.  No sorcerers can spin anything.  Maybe even the were creatures would become weaker and weaker.  Definately not as strong as before since it seems like the weave does improve the connection between the all and the druid/werecreatures.  From the stronger sorcerer/stronger druid thing that happened to tarrin when he got re-turned.

Why does smaller priest spells from younger gods work in other worlds if the weave isn't there? Or is it? But that would mean that Tarrin should be able to do priestmagick in Pyrosia, or?

I thought Tarrin could do very simple preist magic like any other priest, but the magic is so simple it probably wouldn't have been helpful.  Maybe magic like the priests on earth could do, make holy water, bless people, damn devils, psychosomatic healings.

What about wizards magic? It comes from another dimension into Sennadra even though Sennadar is blocked? Does it come thru the gate to the Astral och maybe the spirit-dimension?

Magic is energy, it can freely traverse realities, unless an entity is actively blocking that.  The spirits would have come home, except it was blocked.  Just like how the elemental spirits come through, as long as they have a guiding beacon like thing.   Otherwise they wouldn't know how to get there.  Travelling through realities is dangerous and risky.  And it is very easy to get lost.  So when a wizard calls forth his/her magic, it simply pulls the magic from whatever dimension the wizard magic comes from.  If everything was blocked from comming into sennadar, then the gate that spyder guards would not have been possible.  I think it is just incomming matter that is blocked/restricted to spyder's gate.  And the gods probably aren't afriad of unwanted energy entities, since the gods can easily handle that without harming the physical plane of sennadar.

Lol, now someone is gonna have to read my answers and say that I'm all wrong.  Atleast until Fel tells us exactly how the worlds works in his story.  Maybe pyroasia is just another planet in another star system.  Doesn't even have to be another reality.  Perhaps that Sennadar is closest to the center of the galaxy where there is something special?  Who knows.  That would be simpler as a model to explain with.

- /= orbidder

I never thought we'd get into particle physics here.   ;D

There's way too many questions to answer there without this becoming a chapter, so let' summarize, shall we?

Tarrin's divine power is different from Miranda's.  Forbidder was pretty darn close to the mark when he described her as a living icon.  She has a direct, intimate connection to Kikkalli that no other being has, and that allows her to wield her full magical power anywhere.  Tarrin's power comes from within, from self, and it's a remnant of the true power he once possessed.  Since it's only an echo of a god's power, it's much weaker.  But, since all of his power is focused in one "reality," not spread out through multiple states, he can bring an incredible amount of power to bear in his one little aspect of the multiverse.  Because he is MORTAL, no god can attack him in the way that gods fight one another.  His restriction actually becomes an advantage in this regard, because it renders him invulnerable to the true power that a god might bring against him.  They must challenge him in the mortal realm, and it is here where his power resides.

A god's soul is not mortal, and as such does not belong in the mortal realm.  A god's power exists in multiple states and realities simultaneously, and his soul also exists in this hybrid state.  Even the gods created by the Firestaff, Val and Tarrin, have a divine soul, which is like this.  But unlike other gods, their souls, existing in multiple realites, multiple states of being, were trapped in a singular reality, the mortal realm.  Their divine bodies protected their souls from the paradox of a soul that exists in multiple states being trapped in a realm with only one.  Without the protection of a divine body, insulation against a hostile environment, a god's soul would literally die in the mortal realm.  It would be like a squirrel trying to breathe water or a fish living in a volcano...it just doesn't work.

Niami built Tarrin a new body, and it wasn't easy for her because of the fundamental difference between a mortal shell and a divine soul.  That's why it took so long.  She had to generate that same paradox of a Firestaff god, a physical form housing a soul that should not exist within it.

Val was destroyed because his soul was physically within the mortal realm, and when his body was destroyed, it had nowhere to go.  A god's soul doesn't have the ability to transcend the material world and enter that other realm, because the soul is already supposed to be there.

In this regard, Tarrin is also bound by this rule.  Though he doesn't know it, if he dies, his soul will be trapped in a reality where it cannot maintain itself, and he will be utterly destroyed.  The soultrap he created to protect himself provided his soul with a vessel that isolated it from the hostile environment of the outside world.  That's why he survived.

About demons:  demons are beings of "upper planes," immortal creatures that come from the same dimensions where the gods live.  The reason nothing from Sennadar can hurt a demon is because their immortal natures protect them from mortal objects...but this invulnerability only applies to the universe where the ARE.  Remember, a demon on Sennadar isn't REALLY there.  His soul is still in the Abyss (hell, whatever), and his body is nothing but a representation of his might.  A demon's body is a very primitive and weak form of an icon, but even that is enough to protect it from mundane weapons and objects.  Since they create these bodies in one world, they gear them to defend against objects from THAT WORLD.  Objects from OTHER worlds have a fundamental difference in them that lets them strike through the defense that demons work into the bodies they create and does them true harm.

Priest magic comes from the gods, and is other-worldly, so it harms demons.  Wizard magic is also otherworldly, and also harms demons.  Sorcery is a form of energy unique to Sennadar, and since it is a native form of magic, demons can build their bodies to make them immune to it.

Elementals: it takes considerable power to breach into the elemental planes and open a window that an Elemental can use to send its energy into the construct that a Sorcerer makes.  That's why only sui'kun and da'shar can do it.

Magic:  The Weave is native only to Sennadar, but other magic gets into it at Niami's behest.  She allows gods to channel priest magic into it, and allows breaches from the energy source that powers wizard magic that places wizard magic into it.  She can BLOCK either of these actions at any time.  This is how she intends to blackmail her parents into relenting, by blocking the ability of the gods to channel their power into the Weave, which is how Priests get the energy to cast their spells.

ok, I'm sleepy and can't think straight, so I'm going to bed.  Night.  :)

Hrm... this has got me thinking.

Can someone build me a permanent portal/gateway? one endpoint being somewhere here in my house, and the other being in a major US ISP's switching cabinet.

it'd only have to be wide enough to fit a length of fibre or cat-5 through. But this way i'd finally be able to get some form of broadband!

Maybe pyroasia is just another planet in another star system.  Doesn't even have to be another reality.  Perhaps that Sennadar is closest to the center of the galaxy where there is something special?  Who knows.  That would be simpler as a model to explain with.

Actually, why does Pyrosia have to be in another solar system at all?  There's this funny shifting blue-white moon that Fel keeps describing.  Sounds like a planet to me.  Maybe Pyrosia's a moon.  

Or maybe it's even a moon of Sennadar.

but if Pyrosia if Sennadars moon, doesn't it mean that the gods have power over too???? so what is the need to send the expedition if they can do it themselves. and what is thw use of closing the gate from pyrosia to sennadar if poeple can just pysicaly travel to and fro?

Lol, that's why i suggested other solar system/galaxy in my jest.  If it were as close as within the same star system, the gods would have no trouble controlling it.  But I doubt this is the intent or nature of Fel's world.

I'm very glad there wasn't any very very long follow up questions  I can't help it, I have to answer questions.  ;D

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before or if its from my conversations with Fel but the book is based in a multiverse, the gods only have control of the multiple realms in their universe (this would also include all of the moons, planets, etc within the universe), gateways are links between the universes and as such gods usually can't express their powers in the other universes.

Before someone asks why demons don't build their icons/bodys to be immune to things like iron wood etc Fels mentioned that when a demons form is truely destroyed in a universe (not just banished like what Tarrin did to some demons in book 5 of the sennadar series) it takes them 100 years to reform them so they can go to another plane/universe than their natural one (the abyss). I'm just presuming on this point, but for them to create a body which was immune to more things would likely require a VERY long time to do and it may interfere with other immunities they are trying to build into their bodys.

The only way to truely kill a demon for ever and ever amen is to either go to the abyss and destroy it there (good luck, they can express a LOT more of their power there) or for a god in whatever universe they're currently in (say sennadar) to send their power through the link between the demons body and 'soul' and destroy their soul in that manner.

Hopefully I've got this right and haven't raised any more questions :p

Soul traps for demons?  anyone up to making one?  I wonder how it would wokr.