Sennadar Forums

Not a ID wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:31 am
I don't know about "massive" but the Military has a history of doing some shady stuff with their vote in the past. The Union Army did some shifty stuff in the 1864 Presidential election as I recall. Some parties in DoD weren't above it in the not so recent past based on 2nd hand information I was getting during a certain other election about 20 years ago. But I didn't see anything myself besides being aware that our first mail pickup in November happened a few days after an election's outcome was known to be hanging on a margin of a few hundred votes, and as such my evidence is heresy in a court of law, so there is that.

Mail in voting is very easy to manipulate or otherwise abuse if the right people are involved and given the right circumstances. And the ones abusing it are very unlikely to fess up to it during an audit for obvious reasons.

There is a problem with scaling of the man in the middle attacks with mail in votes. You can get double voting, which should in theory be easy to find. This last election cycle, there was no evidence of such a thing happening. Then there is the effort involved. Computer voting has man in the middle attack where you compromise a single computer that may then change hundreds or even thousands of votes. You scale it up 10 times and suddenly you have thousands or even hundreds of thousands of votes that are changed. How would you even check it without asking the people how they voted, which in itself is illegal? In a mail in ballot, man in the middle attacks are extremely inefficient. They simply do not scale well.

Not a ID wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:31 am

mbeau wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:05 pmThere have been numerous audits of voting by mail, and all of them have found that actual voter fraud (as opposed to people just screwing up honestly) is so insignificantly small so as to be non-existent. The US Military has been doing mail in voting for years, with no issues, as have numerous states. There are claims of massive fraud, however said claims have yet to be supported by **any** evidence of massive conspiracies whatsoever.

I don't know about "massive" but the Military has a history of doing some shady stuff with their vote in the past. The Union Army did some shifty stuff in the 1864 Presidential election as I recall. Some parties in DoD weren't above it in the not so recent past based on 2nd hand information I was getting during a certain other election about 20 years ago. But I didn't see anything myself besides being aware that our first mail pickup in November happened a few days after an election's outcome was known to be hanging on a margin of a few hundred votes, and as such my evidence is heresy in a court of law, so there is that.

Mail in voting is very easy to manipulate or otherwise abuse if the right people are involved and given the right circumstances. And the ones abusing it are very unlikely to fess up to it during an audit for obvious reasons.

The mistaken use of "heresy" is somehow oddly appropriate as well as amusing (heresy is either 1) opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted, or 2) belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious doctrine). The correct term you seem to be looking for is hearsay. Hearsay testimony is almost never allowed in courts, and exceptions to that are so incredibly rare that most lawyers have never personally run into an instance of it happening.

Beyond that, your argument is certainly... interesting. Though I don't really connect the dots to how supposedly "shifty stuff" happening in the army 156 years ago has to do with modern elections.

As far as the first mail pickups in November happening after the election I would also be dubious about, but even if true is irrelevant. Depending on the state votes that came in after the election was over would either be summarily rejected or would have to be postmarked (as in handled by the post office) by the election day. If mail pickup happened after this, the vote simply wouldn't be counted, which would most likely be of net benefit to the Republicans as most mail-in ballots were Democratic. Of course, most mail-in ballots were also sent before the election, so in places like PA where post-marked ballots were allowed but kept quarantined the total number of "late" (from a technical but not legal standpoint) didn't account for enough votes to change the election results even if every single one of them had been for Biden and had been thrown out.

In fact, that was the case with most of the election lawsuits: very few of them, even if they had succeeded in absolute terms, wouldn't have affected enough votes to change election results.

Also to note is that almost all states have allowed mail-in ballots in the past to some extent. The big difference with this election was the number of mail-in ballots, not the presence of mail-in ballots.

But who wants to hear about logic and evidence and facts when you can scream about specious arguments and conspiracy theories. Or just keep repeating claims over and over until someone believes it from the basis of sheer noise ratio.


Edit - Also meant to emphasize Sancria's point on the inefficiency and ineffectiveness of man in the middle attacks. At best, even if such attacks happened (no evidence or real claims to back this up either before or after, except the tired "But Trump Lost!" argument) they wouldn't have effected more than handfuls of votes here or there. Considering the element of risk involved and the scrutiny from people that have been desperately looking for this the chances of any significant amount of such attacks is incredibly small if there haven't been any found by now.

Electronic counting, like the conspiracy theories that attack the Dominion voting machines, have also been manually checked in many/most of the contested areas where recounts were done. Batches that were both hand and machine counted showed no irregularities between the two. This is among the reason that Fox News and several other conservative sources backed down and issued retractions about Dominion when they were threatened with libel lawsuits.

From an European perspective not having an obligatory National ID system seems weird to me, it is soo essential to every aspect of our lives it boggles the mind that fraud is not so much worse without it... And it is... Ours is a photo ID, so even if you tell someone your ID number the harm that can be done is small as just checking the number is not allowed. It also contains a visible copy of the signature AND also has a digital certificate.

Let me explain how it works in Spain.
From 14 years it is obligatory to carry the DNI everywhere and for everyone. No DNI, well, expect a visit to the police station if detained. This is so because for a legal citizen it is quite easy to get one and not that expensive, or even free. It costs 12€ every 5 years up to 30 years of age, then every 10 years. For "numerous family" carnet holders it is free, this applies to 3+ child families and some other circumstances. It is not that onerous to get one. There is also a different kind of ID for legal non citizen residents.

When we vote we must present a photo ID, usually the DNI, and even to vote by mail we need to get checked at the post office against a photo ID to get the necesary "papers" to vote or ask for them using the electronic ID from internet, in wich case the mailman then also checks your ID when they come to give your papers and receive your vote in person. If you vote by mail you can't also vote presentially because your name will not be on the list as mail vote period ends before the actual fisical vote and they are registered beforehand.

Right now totally electronic vote is not possible, but you can complete a lot of bureaucratic things from internet with the ID card and a chip reader and avoid a lot of displacements. It also works to digitally sign any document to make it legally acceptable over the internet.

valinor89 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:29 pm From an European perspective not having an obligatory National ID system seems weird to me

Well, actually some things differ across Europe, my friend. From a Danish perspective, things look a little different - and last I looked, Denmark was part of Europe

In Denmark, we don't have a national ID. The closest we come is our health card, which has no picture.

Picture ID? Drivers license (crappy picture, mine is at least 21 years out of date) and passport, IF you have them.

There have been talks about a national ID many times, but so far to no avail. Quite possibly a "Never again!" holdover from the "Ausweiss, bitte!" of the German occupation during WWII.

Bester wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:24 amAs far as the first mail pickups in November happening after the election I would also be dubious about, but even if true is irrelevant. Depending on the state votes that came in after the election was over would either be summarily rejected or would have to be postmarked (as in handled by the post office) by the election day. If mail pickup happened after this, the vote simply wouldn't be counted, which would most likely be of net benefit to the Republicans as most mail-in ballots were Democratic. Of course, most mail-in ballots were also sent before the election, so in places like PA where post-marked ballots were allowed but kept quarantined the total number of "late" (from a technical but not legal standpoint) didn't account for enough votes to change the election results even if every single one of them had been for Biden and had been thrown out.

In the case of that specific circumstance, it involved a Navy Ship, which had its own post office on board(very common on the larger ships), so the post-marks get applied on the ship, not after being received somewhere else. And in the case of Florida in 2000, as with a number of other states in in 2020(although no state had a margin thin enough to matter this year, and the Navy likely remembered enough from 2000 to not give that opening again) allowed a grace period of several days(up to 10, IIRC) for international ballots to be received. Plenty of time for a duffel full of US mail to get taken off a few ships and expedited back to the United States post-haste via military airlift before those deployed service members had their ballots spoiled due to poor mail service(which is a historically real problem for deployed troops in general, in the 1990's and 2000's a 6 week turnaround on physical mail was normal; where for that to work in some cases, you end up needing to mail your ballot back in the middle of September to get it back home by election day, good luck with that when they're not typically mailing the ballot until about then... Which means you might get the absentee ballot by election day with no means of getting it back by the deadline, at least until Florida had their hanging chads make international news).

Edit - Also meant to emphasize Sancria's point on the inefficiency and ineffectiveness of man in the middle attacks. At best, even if such attacks happened (no evidence or real claims to back this up either before or after, except the tired "But Trump Lost!" argument) they wouldn't have effected more than handfuls of votes here or there. Considering the element of risk involved and the scrutiny from people that have been desperately looking for this the chances of any significant amount of such attacks is incredibly small if there haven't been any found by now.

Electronic counting, like the conspiracy theories that attack the Dominion voting machines, have also been manually checked in many/most of the contested areas where recounts were done. Batches that were both hand and machine counted showed no irregularities between the two. This is among the reason that Fox News and several other conservative sources backed down and issued retractions about Dominion when they were threatened with libel lawsuits.

Oh, I'm fully agreed that fraud on the scale needed to flip the outcome is unlikely in the extreme. But my own issue with the election this past year isn't so much the "Trump lost" as I'm not going to miss him. It's that changes were rammed through which make it more difficult to detect fraud, not easier, and many of those changes also made tampering(or more specifically coercion) with votes easier as well. Mail in voting at home? I can look over your shoulder and watch you vote, and give you shit if I don't like your choice. If I tried to do that to you at the polling location, I'd be asked to leave, or possibly even arrested and charged.

There are circumstances where absentee/mail in voting is needed in order to allow someone to vote. But it should be the exception, not the rule. If you want to allow early voting (in person) starting two months in advance? Knock yourself out. I'm even game for states authorizing counties to allow them to "pop-up" mobile early polling for the elderly and certain other access impaired groups so long as poll observers are allowed to be present(actual presence not required) and given adequate notification.

But at the same time, some of this gets into some more nuanced concerns about the voting franchise in general in the United States, and parts of it need to be cleaned up. Someone has suffered a severe Traumatic Brain Injury leaving them with the effective intelligence of a 2nd grader, but they're over 18? Even though they're not legally competent to care for themselves, they can vote, if someone manages to register them and get a (mail in) ballot in front of that person.

Ditto for that senior citizen in the nursing home who has a severely advanced case of Alzheimer's Disease. He's an eligible registered voter, someone need only bring him a ballot so he can exercise his franchise. Forget having the dead turn up to vote. Just start recruiting the people who can't even understand what they're doing. Sure, it shouldn't be enough to impact the outcome of a federal election. But the mere fact that such things are legally possible under the current system is a problem. The kicker is we have a constitutional amendment which makes correcting it impossible without another amendment. They're over 18, not guilty of any felonies, and a citizen, so they can vote if they can get to a ballot.

Ping wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:32 pm

valinor89 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:29 pm From an European perspective not having an obligatory National ID system seems weird to me

Well, actually some things differ across Europe, my friend. From a Danish perspective, things look a little different - and last I looked, Denmark was part of Europe

In Denmark, we don't have a national ID. The closest we come is our health card, which has no picture.

Picture ID? Drivers license (crappy picture, mine is at least 21 years out of date) and passport, IF you have them.

There have been talks about a national ID many times, but so far to no avail. Quite possibly a "Never again!" holdover from the "Ausweiss, bitte!" of the German occupation during WWII.

Looked it ip, seems only 3 countries in the European Economic Area dont have a national ID, including Denmark.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... nomic_Area

I would say you are kind of weird europeans on this

Greymist wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:21 pm

Fawks wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:14 am
No, It will take ALL votes being in person at the polling location, all ballots being hand counted and no precincts turning in their vote counts until ALL precincts are ready within the state.

I'm not from the US so I don't have a large stake in this but my thoughts:

I don't understand how a vote can be considered representative of the population if it's conducted in a way which prevents ANY valid person from voting. For example military services people on deployment, older people who aren't mobile or those who lack transport, people who have work/childcare/etc commitments, or just people who don't want to spend their precious time queuing with lots of other people during a pandemic.

Voting should not be onerous.

If you suspect there are problems with the accuracy of votes submitted through any method, whether that's fraudulent postal votes, people voting in person at multiple voting sites with fakes id, or ballot stuffing, then you need to come up with solutions for that, but ones which don't place an undue burden on citizens which prevents them from voting, or reduces voter turn out.

1. Have the polling locations open daily for one week.

2. Have the states mail military personnel their ballots like now. Give the military personell a 'Polling Location' within their post or base. Whether that is a room in the PX on base or in a foxhole under a tent 2 miles from the front lines I don't care. Then have the military sort them by state and deliver the ballots via a secure transport to a central location for ballots arriving from outside the state (). (I heard or read last fall that ballots were found in trash/ditch. Some of those were military ballots.)

3. Both of my parents have to use 4way walkers to get around. In November they drove up into a line at the polling place for people who were unable to stand in line. When they arrived at the front of the line a poll worker asked for their ID and Voter Registration card and then went back into the building and came back out with their State/Federal and local ballots. They then filled out their ballots, handed the ballots to the worker to put into the ballot box and drove off without ever having to leave their vehicle. It works.

4. As for those who will be over 200 miles or more from their polling location during the entire voting process (i.e. living out of the country), let those few get presidential ballots via the mail. Preferably something reliable like UPS or FedEx to where the state is processing all out of area/state ballots.

5. Greymist, some voters would say that having to get up out of their Lazy-boy recliner places an undue burden on them. Have the polling locations open for a week, just like early voting at the sub courthouse. If you can stand in line at the grocery store/gas station you can stand in line to vote. If someone cant get a family member, friend, church member or some other entity to take them to the polling place, they must really be a jerk, find a way to the polling booth. It is incumbent on the voters to get their butts to their polling location not for the government to provide a fix for every real or imaginary excuse.

I have missed elections before. I forgot to get up early so I could go vote before work. That was my fault not the governments.

6. As for the Ballot Stuffing, go back to paper ballots with a mandatory hand count after the machine count. One problem I heard with the Dominion electronic systems, they didn't provide a print out verifying each ballots selections, just a barcode. Observers of candidate parties, if they have chosen to provide one, MUST be in attendance and able to see every ballot throughout its process, including able to read it. If the last observer for one party is forced to leave for any reason then until an observer returns or another observer from the same party affiliation arrives ALL ballot activity stops immediately or risk forfeiture of all ballots for that precinct and prosecution for those knowingly not following the rules. If there are no observers, every ballot room must be video taped via multiple modern not vhs video cameras and no ballot boxes may be placed in any hidden or unobservable locations nor removed from the room. (i.e. no placing or using ballot boxes that have been placed under a table covered with a long table cloth, which happened in Georgia the night of the Presidential election and was counted AFTER the party ballot observers had been told to leave)

7. If the ballots have to be moved, then the place where the ballots are leaving must call the location where the ballots are going to arrive at and report: a) Name of caller (caller must write down the name of the person receiving the call), b) precinct that the ballot boxes are leaving from, c) number of ballot boxes, d) including the 'serial' number of each ballot box leaving the precinct, e) total number of ballots in boxes if opened or state that the ballot boxes are unopened, f) drivers name and any names of any/all passengers, g) color, make, model of vehicle carrying the ballots, h) time vehicle left and estimated length of travel, i) if possible, vehicle escorted by nnn city/county/state officers with name, badge number(s), marked/unmarked vehicle, unit number and if possible license number.
Caller shall email and verify receipt of a copy of this information to the arriving location with cc to departing location, police/county/state officers department, state election/coordination office.