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Oh yeah, I have a good story to why you should study martial arts, even beyond Journeywomans story of the expensive stuff or Hallmist's didn't hurt baby story...and best of all it just happened to me 2 days ago

Imagine this...riding a motorcyle and lot of nice sun.  You come around a corner and the city has neglected to clean this corner of gravel.

Now you're not going too fast so it's not a big deal, but you still bail and wipe out.

Judo training kicks in and you execute a textbook flying roll, hit the ground already rolling, and breakfall beautifully in the centre of the median instead of tumbling into the oncoming traffice lane. (which was a big truck..ouch)

your bike lands behind you, and you _almost_ roll onto your feet (I have to imagine that the driver of the truck would have been really impressed if I did that...I didn't so she wasn't....oh well)

you're basically unhurt except some road rash on your hands where you slapped the ground hard enough to leave bruises across your entire hand.  If you had been smart enough to wear gloves, you'd have walked away.

Now, this being said and done, I'm happy to be alive and basically in one piece.  I've got literally 3 days of healing to do, maybe a week. and I'll be fine.  The guy that wiped the day before wasn't so lucky and managed to not only be riding in shorts and tank top, but one of those silly skull caps and ended up going to a major hospital cause he leaking spinal fluid from every orrifice.  Incase that doesn't make your  arse pucker, consider because he's leaking SPINAL fluid, they can't give him pain killers.

Thank god for riding leathers and helmets. and learning how to take a fall.

to add another point of view, one of which i didn't think before: i think the most important thing i learned in my aikido years was: avoid a fight!

don't mistake me for a pacifist or something, but it's still better to run from an attacker on street than engaging, because even in the case you win you may as well end up with a lawsuit because of (dunno exact translation, but maybe:) exaggerated self-defence (for the german-speaking folk: ueberschrittene notwehr) because you, well, beat the guy to pulp...

aside of that i have to say that improved reflexes, being aware of your center of gravity and knowing how to fall really comes in handy sometimes (although i don't have such a nice story as sancria to tell to back this up)

taltos

btw: my aikido teacher's reaction to my telling him that i tried jujitsu now was "ah, the bonebreakers...."
and now i'm wiser and i have to agree for somehow aikido is/seems/looks more elegant than jujitsu...

Aikido, I find is/seems/looks more elegant than jujitsu because of the focus on footwork. Since everything is based on circles (in terms of movement and focus) it's a lot more aesthetically pleasing than some other 'harder' martial arts.

That's not to say that it's not effective, however, Aikido is a fantastic study in human kinesthetics, since the throws and such are just an application of knowing the limits of the range of movement of joints, then pushing them past those limits. The focus on footwork and maintaining centre and balance make every movement look graceful, simply because the practicioner is well balanced throughout the whole movement.

And chances are, if you're in a street fight, Aikido will serve you better than some of the others, as it, the majority of the time. leads to neutralisation, and immobilisation of the opponent rather than knocking them out (Although, it's very easy to continue a lot of the immobilisation techniques to tear joints out of their socket), which leads to much safer legal repercussions as Taltos said. I believe that if one has a high enough belt in a martial art, and does serious damage to someone (as can happen in the heat of the moment) their body can be classed as a lethal weapon and the appropriate 'use of excessive force in self defense' argument can be levied against them. And anyway, if someone tries to mug you, you want them put away with as little reason to sue you back for damages as possible ;D

straechav wrote:Well, I didn't say Katana was useless as a weapon. I was in a bit of hurry so I left out a lot of explanations.

[...]

As for the hardware, Katana is easily just as good as longsword (when it comes to unarmored opponents). But where longsword is cutting weapon (i.e, you can hack someone's limb off if you hit hard enough) Katana is slashing weapon. If you fight correctly with Katana you'll be using only the tip of it the weapon. The heavy "wedge" shape of Katana's blade does not allow for cutting, unless you aim for exact joint, and even then it's iffy. So, whenever you see someone in a Kung Fu movie to cut three in to two pieces, first check what kind of sword he is using. If it's Katana, someone hasn't taken a good look at the sword before writing the script. If it's some of the more "western" style sword - okay, good. It's theoretically possible..

I have no martial arts training, nor this matter was a special interest of mine. But as far as I know (please correct me if I'm mistaken) that katana is two (or one-and-a-half) handed sable (curved sword). The sable was invented (if I remember correctly) by Arabs, 'cause the turbans are good defence against straight sword, with those layers of cloth slowing and cushioning the slash of sword (you cut like with an axe). Sable cuts thru it like a knife. Polish and Hungarians taken to fighting with the sable when fighting against Turks and Arabs. So, I think with the proper cutting move (pulling the blade towards you while cutting) you can actually cut/slash with katana.

Another thing to take into consideration is the armor (is it Japan lace armour, leather, chain mail or full plate amor), is the sword meant to be used from horse (if I remember correclty, you rather not use two handed sword riding a horse, not to cut it's head), is the terrain you usually fight on flat, mountain, forest and so on... If you are fighting in formation or alone. Or you are only fighting in highly formalized duels...

I wonder how would the duel come between the musketeer (think d'Artagan) using spade and Polish dragoon using sable...

nor this matter was a special interest of mine. But as far as I know (please correct me if I'm mistaken) that katana is two (or one-and-a-half) handed sable (curved sword). The sable was invented (if I remember correctly) by Arabs, 'cause the turbans are good defence against straight sword, with those layers of cloth slowing and cushioning the slash of sword (you cut like with an axe). Sable cuts thru it like a knife. Polish and Hungarians taken to fighting with the sable when fighting against Turks and Arabs. So, I think with the proper cutting move (pulling the blade towards you while cutting) you can actually cut/slash with katana.
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The evolution of all swords had to do with what they were used for.  In the case of sabres, (not sables), the reason they were curved was yes, because they were used to slash/cut against turbans, but MOSTLY because they are used on horseback.  Straight swords would catch on bone, and used short hacking cuts, then a boot would have to kick the corpse off the body.

With a curved blade, espcially like the english dragoons would use, you could literally ride past and trample infantry, while slashing and carving people up.

The Japanese Tachi, which eventually evolved into the Katana, started off straight, but because the same reasons for the english sabres, ended up curved in the end.

The advent of armour changed the katana in the last half the samurai age into a modified slash cut blade into a thrust slash blade, to better penetrade body armours.

Some of the older styles of Kenjutsu reflect this quite markedly--in the last half the meiji restoration during which the samurai class was dissolved, the katana was curved but mainly used on foot, resulting in footwork being more important.  (Check out "The Last Samurai" to illustrate this.  Lots of the fights ended on thrusts.)

On horse back you can't stab a target without losing your weapon.

Anyways,  swords are like any other tools.   There is a right sword for the job, like there is a right hammer for every application.

The sabre had actually nothing to do with the invention of the katana.

The Japanese first swords were straight sword called Chokuto that were imported from China and Korea. They then copied this model and began creating their own straight swords. Eventually as they got better at metallurgy, they began extending the length of the Chokuto. However, this did cause the sword to become weaker and break.

According to Japanese tradition, after the emperor returned with his warriors from a battle, the emperor refused to look at the sword smiths because their swords were breaking in battle. And as one smith noticed, nearly every returning warriors sword was broken. So to fix this, a smith by the name of Amakuni Yasutsuna attempted to fix this. Him and his son, spent a month working on a sword, when he emerged, the sword possessed a slight curve, and a single edge. They called the sword a tachi, a tachi is about four feet in length and designed to be used from horseback.

The warriors were pleased with the tachi because it could be drawn from a saya (scabbard) quite easily. The long, curved blade was ideal for a sweeping draw and slash against opponents on the ground or mounted upon other horses. However, as warfare and time moved on, fewer and fewer horses were being used and the tachi was becoming impossibly long and impossible to draw on the ground.

A shorter sword, called the katana was created. Katana are generally between 2 1/2 feet and 4 feet in length and, though curved, have a less pronounced curve than the tachi. They can be efficiently drawn from the saya into position for a horizontal, diagonal, or vertical cut, and the curve of the blade lends itself well to the efficient slashing cut characteristic of Ia-do (sword drawing path or sword drawing style).

The tachi and katana however, also, aren't gifted by their swordmakers. The terrible cutting power of the katana or tachi does not simply depend on the quality of the blade; it must be wielded by someone who knows how to cut, a skill developed by cutting through bundles made from wet straw or other materials.

~dX

Good Topic,
I have been studying Taekwondo for 12 years now and I hold a 3rd dan in Taekwondo. I also hold a 1st dan in Haidong Gumdo, which is the sword art of korea. After reading some replies about how the katana can't cut through bone I will have to disagree highly. In the study of Gumdo or Kenjutsu or Iaido, a student is taught how to cut through one stalk or more of bamboo. The reason that bamboo is used is because it is the closest thing that can be compared to the human bone. There are a few things that go into how well a katana can cut. First of all a show sword isn't going to cut anything. It has to be a sword that has been folded over and over. I have seen my grandmaster take a show sword and cut it in half with his sword. Next it goes into technique. The way that we learned to cut is at a 45 degree angle. If you try to cut bamboo at anything less than or more than a 45 degree angle you will splinter the bamboo and it wont cut through. You also don't swing the sword as fast and hard as possible, you only have to pull through slightly. So to say that a katana is a weak weapon one would be correct. The katana is nothing compared to the Jin-gum of korea. Jin-gums are shaped like katanas but have wider blades and are forged better. I have seen a japanese katana (folded and forged) cut in half by a korean jin-gum. Oh yeah and kung fu comes from china so why would there be katanas in a kung fu movie anyways. Some people don't know their martial arts history. ANyways thats my two cents on this topic

seekeroffire wrote:Good Topic,
I have been studying Taekwondo for 12 years now and I hold a 3rd dan in Taekwondo. I also hold a 1st dan in Haidong Gumdo, which is the sword art of korea. After reading some replies about how the katana can't cut through bone I will have to disagree highly. In the study of Gumdo or Kenjutsu or Iaido, a student is taught how to cut through one stalk or more of bamboo. The reason that bamboo is used is because it is the closest thing that can be compared to the human bone. There are a few things that go into how well a katana can cut. First of all a show sword isn't going to cut anything. It has to be a sword that has been folded over and over. I have seen my grandmaster take a show sword and cut it in half with his sword. Next it goes into technique. The way that we learned to cut is at a 45 degree angle. If you try to cut bamboo at anything less than or more than a 45 degree angle you will splinter the bamboo and it wont cut through. You also don't swing the sword as fast and hard as possible, you only have to pull through slightly. So to say that a katana is a weak weapon one would be correct. The katana is nothing compared to the Jin-gum of korea. Jin-gums are shaped like katanas but have wider blades and are forged better. I have seen a japanese katana (folded and forged) cut in half by a korean jin-gum. Oh yeah and kung fu comes from china so why would there be katanas in a kung fu movie anyways. Some people don't know their martial arts history. ANyways thats my two cents on this topic

I suppose this is a topic people will disagree forever. I did not say it is impossible to cut bone with Katana. Just that it doesn't lend itself to the purpose very well. I think that more easier way to kill someone is just to slash something more vital and just leave the bone alone, don't you think?  It is not the best sword for it. For a simple example which is better at hacking you can test a longsword or bastard sword and then katana at same kind of tree (or bamboo, if you wish, although it is too thin for you to see what I mean). The fact simply is that the shape of blade that Katana has (the wedge!) doesn't cut deep.

HOWEVER. Please note what words I am using here. Katana works very well when it comes to slashing something. It CUTS well but it doesn't do it very deep very easily. Human target is difficult to cut with ANY sword because with all probability the damn guy is moving while you're trying to cut his limb off. All you need to do is to hit the bone is slightly wrong angle and it won't cut the bone perfectly. That is my point. Katana makes it more difficult, not better.

Against unarmored targets Katana may be even better than western sword. However, broadsword was designed for HACKING armored opponents to pieces. It lacks certain style you've used to, but it doesn't make it any less efficient.

I am trying to stress this because as an collector of swords I find it disturbing to notice the near mythological status that Katana has reached, and not entirely on it's real merits. It is not a superior sword, it's just another sword made for a certain kind of style and purpose.

As for show swords and real swords.... Well... the fact is that damascus steel adds no longer any real value to the blade other than aesthetic. There is no real need to do folding the way it was done before since the quality of metal is completely different from the old times when they had problems with the quality of steel. There are several lenghty topics in several books and websites why it was done, and why it is done these days as only a visual effect, so I won't venture to that path. Especially since even the professionals of the field disagree on this topic.

As for Kung Fu movies and katanas. Hell if I know why they have Wushu moves with katanas, but you can witness it with your own eyes in some movies. Besides, if I wanted to be jackass I could point out that Kung Fu isn't actually any single martial arts. In fact, it's not originally even term that was restricted to martial arts.

But, I think you missed my point. I was using "Kung Fu" as general term for martial arts and Martial Arts movies genre which is widely known as "Kung Fu Movies" despite the fact that many of the movies don't have any chinese martial arts in them. And since we are in a western world where there is no real point trying to be snobby about the general purpose term.

does being a Master of Movie Fu count?   ;D

Hmm..just thought I'd throw in my opinion about the Aikido vs Judo/Jujuitsu debate that seems to be brewing (at least that Im trying to start)

I've studied both and I've achieved at least my first dan in both styles.

Both have much to offer a practioner, in terms of fitness and ability.

How they achieve that is a totally different path.

Judo or Jujuitsu (the more combat oriented style of judo) is based on the single principle of the "gentle way"

In theory, this means that your attack uses the energy of the attacker and turns what starts as an attack, into a defeat.

In practice, judo is mostly about throwing an opponent down to the mat, controlling their fall, or wrestling them to the mat, and maintaining control of the torso for 30 secs.  Do not forget that judo, while a practical means of self defense, is primarily a sport, and does not teach the more dangerous joint locks as well as various throwing techniques that are prone to injure in a match.

Jujuitsu is of a similar vein with judo, but is more combat oriented, crippling or disabling of an opponent using a variety of joint locks, chokes or strangulations.  Emphasis is placed on throwing an attacker to the ground, maintaining limb control, and use of joint lock to disable a single attacker.  Against multiple attackers, Jujuitsu is quite a bit rougher, using various striking techniques into pressure points or vulnerable areas to damage limbs and limit  movement.

Against weapons, Jujuitsu is straightforward and pratical.

Control the weapon, counter the weapon, counter the attack.

Aikido on the other hand focuses less on the throwing of opponents, but focuses more on dodging and controlling the direction of an attack.  Secondary is the manipulation of joints to provide pain, so that a person literally throws themself to relief the pain.  In general, wrist locks and elbow locks are emphasised.

A good example of this is a simple knife thrust.  Joe has a knife.  He tries to stab Bob the Black Belt.

Joe thrusts his knife into bob's belly.  Bob, being the gentle and graceful person he is, helps joe, by grabbing Joe's wrist and pulling the knife into his own belly.  But being the gentle and graceful person Bob is, he doesn't want to splash his blood on joe's nice shoes and pivots away, at the same time switching hands so he can control the knife.  Bob sees that Joe is off balance and about to fall down, perhaps injuring himself with his own knife, so for Joe's own safety, he will apply an arm lock and take the knife away from Joe.

Joe being grateful for having clean shoes and not falling on his own knife, while pray/scream loudly until he lands on his face and contemplates leaning arnis

Now that being said, a lot of focus is placed on foot work to avoid flying bodies.  Properly done, a master of Aikido is beautiful to watch, perhaps only moving in an area of just over double shoulder width, they are capable of literally trashing a room full of people who are trying to hurt him.

Another thing you should remember.  The style of any martial arts can be made to be "harder" or more combative, or "softer," gentler and less aggressive.

Aikido can be used to shatter joints, rip tendons, and break nearly any bone in your body.

In the dojos that I studied in, it was MUCH more common to see serious injuries in the Aikido classes.  In the "harder" styles, like TKD or Kung Fu or hell, boxing, bruising was about the extent of it. or a broken toe.  The most serious accident in TKD at the provincial level I saw was a broken ankle from a jumping kick combo that landed badly.   In Aikido it wasn't uncommon to see sprained wrists or shoulders about once a week.  I've seen a broken pelvis twice in Judo and Aikido.

Now...my rambling is done and I can read all of the Firestaff series again.


Oh and by the way, when it comes to swords, dead is dead.  whether or not you lost a limb and bled to death or someone hacked you into hamburger, or you merely were gutted and got to see your lunch twice, dead is dead.