Magic in the universe of Sennadar

[Edengrave]

Niami is the Godess of Magic.
Yet Fel has divided Magic into 4 orders on Sennadar.
Sorcery,Druidic,Arcane,Priest, And Niami true domain is Sorcery. But on Sennadar, she controls All Magic. (Although Druids bypass the weave and tap directly into the All). From the sage Tarrin spoke to in Concordant opposition, we understand just how vast magic is. In some other universes gods of magic have changed the rules just as Niami did.

The way I understand it:
Sorcery exist only on the forbidden Prime, and Now on Pyrosia. And its extremely potent. In a way its pure magic refined. Into a Matrix, the Weave, divided into seven spheres. natural gift.
Druidic Magic is the ability to connect with the All, which itself is the Power wielded By the First Elder God to create the universe. The All can do Anything, Because Everything came from it. The more I learn about it, the more I think Druidics magic is the most powerfull. Druid are very very rare. And Hierarchs are even rarer. Fitting that such a potent magic, is so dangerous. natural gift too.
Priests are basically granted Power by their Gods. Just like Arcane Magic, Anybody can be a priest. They use spell in the language of the gods. A powerful tool. And the only way for mortals to use divine energy. Still arguably the most limited of the orders of magic. How do you create new spells in priest magic? The language of the gods, is just as incomprehensible as the language of magic. If mortals could understand it, they could tailor their spells for a specific effect, instead of set effects for each spell. Gods can use Priest Magic too. But there seem to be a convention going around the multiverse, that they can only use spells they can give to their priests. So the only way for priest magic to improve, is from the mortal side! it's worth noting that in some rare cases it can be a natural gift (Miranda). and now that he is a god, Tarrin too.
And at last Arcane Magic! Just like priests Magic, its pretty much standard in all the multiverses. The interesting thing is that theres an otherworldly god of Arcane magic!
The god of wizards is not even on Sennadar!
I wonder on what material plane is his icon? I never noticed that glaring fact! (So just like we learned in the last chapter, some gods can be worshipped in many dimensions? Doesn't that open possibiities for Niami where Pyriosa is concerned?)
Still, He must be frighteningly powerful. When you think about the number of Arcane magic users in all the Multiverse. Hell even demons use Arcane magic! I've never seen a God use it, probably because they dont really need too, but I have no doubt they can.
Hes probably a prime god. In any case, just like Niami, he is a god outside the balance.
Is Magic always outside the balance? Curious.
We already know that the elder gods let the wizards enter Sennadar because Arcane magic did not influence the balance.
Another possibility is that wizards are tapping through the energy dimensions, through their use of the language of magic and their own understanding of the universe working. There certainly seem to be little faith involved of a godly being.. And maybe that otherworldly god of Arcane Magic is a younger god created through some wizards faith.
And has not the control of Arcane Magic, that  Niami has of Sorcery. Its pretty doubtful that he has created Arcane Magic, since it operates on a multiverse level. In fact, the more I think of it, the more I think this must be the case. Arcane Magic operate on all the universes; Its like the source code of creation. And only the God of gods, could have that much access, to permit it to cross cosmic boundaries. Again it's worth noting that although everybody can use it, some modicum of natural gift is involved. the ability to do something is not the ability to do it well. Arcane Magic has two plateaus so to speak. The intellectual/Knowledge plateau, and the natural ability plateau. Like Fel said, Phandelbrass is so knowledgeable that he can do spells that are magicaly beyond him, because he undersand how they work so well. and Tarrin is so magicaly gifted, that he can do spells that are beyond is understanding.

In some respects magic is like science. some knowledge is lost, some is gained. and as your knowledge grow so does your power.

Finaly Fel has hinted, at a confluence of the orders of magic. Something that happens when All the orders are united.  greater than the sum of their parts. Might that be the reason why Ayise decreed that mortals can not use more than one order? what happens when you master all orders and there's a confluence?

[jrs772000]

Edengrave,
 Just to clarify a few of the points you raised as I understand them.

 First, with regards to the All.  Ayise, the first elder god, didn't create the universe.  To my understanding it's the God of Gods that creates universes as well as an elder god to run it.  Ayise and the others then created sennadar.  I don't think the All is tapping into the power that created the universe.  I think it taps the power of life of sennadar.  As well as a portion of Ayises's power.

 Second, regarding the god of wizards and arcane magic.  Azur i think was the name given to him.  He would be a younger god brought by the wizard that brought arcane magic to sennadar. Whether he is worshipped on more then just sennadar and whereever that first wizard came from we don't yet know.

 As for how arcane magic works.  Fel has stated in the books that it taps into the positive and negative energy planes, though i forget which book and chapter he did.

[Edengrave]

Edengrave,
 Just to clarify a few of the points you raised as I understand them.

 First, with regards to the All.  Ayise, the first elder god, didn't create the universe.  To my understanding it's the God of Gods that creates universes as well as an elder god to run it.  Ayise and the others then created sennadar.  I don't think the All is tapping into the power that created the universe.  I think it taps the power of life of sennadar.  As well as a portion of Ayises's power.

 Second, regarding the god of wizards and arcane magic.  Azur i think was the name given to him.  He would be a younger god brought by the wizard that brought arcane magic to sennadar. Whether he is worshipped on more then just sennadar and whereever that first wizard came from we don't yet know.

 As for how arcane magic works.  Fel has stated in the books that it taps into the positive and negative energy planes, though i forget which book and chapter he did.

Thanx for the corrections.

As far as Arcane Magic is concerned, I probably should have specified the energy dimensions in question were as yous said the positive and negative energy planes. take a look at my last post in DBane chapter2  discussion. I'd be interessed to have other's thoughts on that idea of positive+negative energy confluence.

Somewhere in Axe of the dwarven king, Fel calls Azur the otherworldly god of magic. That's why I assume he is an Alien God whose Icon resides on another world. I still doubt gods can immigrate that easily. Even before Sennadar was forbidden.

It's true that Fel stated that the God of gods created universes, and with each universe also and elder god to supervise that universe and create in it. so I was clearly wrong there. But I do believe there's room for interpretation.

Again, As I understood things. The All is the Power of nature in the universe. (which includes life, yes, since life is a major part of nature, which it's own intricate energies) but nature is not limited to life. There's certainly nothing artificial about the energy of the sun, or the energy inside the atoms, or the energy of the wind. And matter. All matter is energy. An universe has a pretty much endless source of natural energies. And we do know the All energy is infinite. that is not the case with life energies.It's just that since druids are a part of life, they interface with the All, through the part of the All that connects with life energies.
Maybe instead of saying that the All is the power that created the universe I should have said the All is the power of the universe. it makes more sense; something that can completely change the laws of a universe, has just got to be that universe itself, or something greater. The All is then the power that the God of gods left in the first elder god hands, through almost irreductible ties). He basicaly left that first elder God at the helm of the universe.
so I don't think it's tapping Ayise Power, but that Ayise's power is the ALL itself. or at the very least, SHE taps into it, in addition to her divine energies. In networking parlance, druids would be regular users, Ayise, the Administrator or the Superuser. I think you can find confirmation if you read sword of fire again.

I would have liked to have others thought on priest magic though. how do priest magic improve/progress? is it conceivable that the onus is on the mortals?

[rick]

I belive that it is in the part where Tarrin is building the Tower for Kimmie to study/pratice her magic in.

[Belgarion213]

I am pretty sure that priest magic, i.e. the power a priest can draw is in direct propotion to how favored a person is to that god. However usually spells are automaticly granted, the gods arent really aware of it, hence why som of Val's followers got divine spells from the god the knights worship.

Remember that while an elder god has their power only in their plane, that a younger gods power is in direct proportion to the number of worshipers he/she has. A younger god can gain a foothold in any world (that is not bared) as long as one worshiper goes into that dimension.

[Edengrave]

Well I have been wrong before. And no doubt I will be wrong again. But I thought I remembered Fel saying that Ayise created the universe. somewhere on the forum. I went and checked it out after yesterday's post

About time someone asked that.  I've all but smashed it over your heads.  ;)

Druids are INDIRECTLY the priests of Ayise, the goddess of creation.  They tap into the All, which is nothing but the energy of Ayise that resides within the world, and amplified by the presence of life.  They're using Ayise's power, but not directly...think of Druids as leeches that have managed to learn how to siphon off one aspect Ayise's power without her direct blessing.  Ayise doesn't directly sponsor the Druids, but she's aware of them and allows them to touch her power, mainly because they're very careful about how they use it, and it tends to kill the ones that aren't.  As long as they continue to approach Druidic magic with the same respect for its power, she'll continue to allow them to do it.

That is why nothing is impossible where Druidic magic is concerned...because they're accessing the power of the goddess the created the universe.

There's an All in Pyrosia too, the physical aspect of the power of the Elder god of that world.  As those of you who read the last chapter know, Tarrin has considered trying to tap that power and use it to stop the Demon Lord, but he also knows it'll kill him.  The All in Pyrosia doesn't have the sentient will behind it that the All in Sennadar DOES, because that sentience is an aspect of Ayise's allowing the Druids to use her power.  The hand of Ayise guides every Druidic spell, it is HER that the Druids find in their minds when they're feeling the All touch them to read their image and intent.  The All of Pyrosia lacks this sentience, because the Elder God of Pyrosia is either asleep, dead, or no longer cares about the world he created.  That's why it would kill Tarrin to touch the All of Pyrosia, because HE would have to provide that guidance for the power, and no mortal mind could possibly do such a thing.

Ayise does have formal priests, who get their power the way all the other priests do.  But unlike any other god except Niami, she can call on followers that use a different order of magic if she needs to.  Druids don't worship Ayise, but they WILL obey her if she calls on them to perform a task, if only because she controls their power.  For that matter, just about ANYONE would obey Ayise if she ordered them to do something...hehehe.

Then again, most Druids don't even know about this relationship.  Only the Hierarchs do, those with a much more intimate connection to the All, and with enough experience to know the truth.

Naturally, I'm sure a bunch of you are already starting to formulate questions about how Tarrin fits into all this, given he's using Ayise's power, and Ayise is more or less his enemy.  No doubt just about all of you just said "wait a minute, if Ayise controls the All, she could kill Tarrin instantly just about any time she wants, because he's actively linked to the All," and you'd be right.  The answers aren't exactly simple, nor can I give them without spoiling future plotline events.

Yes, Ayise could have killed Tarrin at any time before he left Sennadar for Pyrosia.

But no, she did not do it.

Why?  Well, the simple answer is that killing Tarrin would have destroyed a large portion of the regional geography, something she would do only as a last resort.

The complicated answer is that she didn't do it because she didn't feel it was the proper time.  She didn't feel it was quite right to do it yet, always waiting until she was certain that it was the proper thing to do...but that time never came, and now he's beyond her ability to harm him.  Something stayed her hand, and the reason for this will be explained in the third book.

There, I answered your question, and I'm sure I just made you think up a bunch more, so I'm gonna be evil and run away now and make you sit there and stew in angry silence.  ;)

Besides, I have a psychology test in the morning, and it's time to study.  ;)

I really hate to let go of my idea. I thought I had it figured  out

:-/ Well I like building castles in the air anyway,  and this post just give me more fuel for speculation...unless Fel mystiped? But that possibility is pretty remote. So let us say what I just quoted is Gospel, and go on from there. I will first attempt to salvage what I can of my pet theory

1-"They tap into the All,
which is nothing but the energy of Ayise that resides within the world, and amplified by the presence of life."

Okay at first glance this definition seems different, but when you think about it, it could be just another way of saying the same thing.

We already agree that the All is the energy of Ayise.
the fact that it resides within the world is probably an expediant way of saying something that would be much more complicated. I believe what Fel means is not that The All exists only on the world, but that it's central node, the site of the semi-sentience behind it resides on Sennadar.
I am convinced that the All would be accessible anywhere on the universe of Sennadar. like on the moons for example.
I think Sword of Fire illustrates my point, when Tarrin builds the new weave.

Amplified by the energy of life. I see this as a vindication of my previous statement. Life is just the part of the All that is easier to connect with, thus the sense of amplifying. in a world without life, there would still be The All, but it's presence would be muted to all mortals druids. since that's how they connect with it. I think Tarrin could still reach it through the Divine aspect of his soul, something he has done before, when the cat could not handle Pyrosia's All.

2-"They're using Ayise's power, but not directly...think of Druids as leeches that have managed to learn how to siphon off one aspect Ayise's power without her direct blessing.  Ayise doesn't directly sponsor the Druids, but she's aware of them and allows them to touch her power, mainly because they're very careful about how they use it, and it tends to kill the ones that aren't.  As long as they continue to approach Druidic magic with the same respect for its power, she'll continue to allow them to do it.

That is why nothing is impossible where Druidic magic is concerned...because they're accessing the power of the goddess that created the universe. "

Here from the man himself. It confirms my earlier statements and speculations so far, even the one I previously retracted, (Ayise created the universe) which raise another question:

I believe it deserves another topic, But I already created too many lately. I'm actually holding back. I don't want to flood the forum. it's just my way of staying entertained inbetween chapters. back to the topic at hand:

Are they universes and universes? dimensions and dimensions? planes and planes?

I mean can Ayise create a universe inside a Greater Universe? I don't see why not . Fel statement, as well as our own reality seem to imply it.
We know that in the real world there's the Universe. which represents pratically all of existence. and Astrophysicians have shown, there are islands-universes. So at the macrocospic scale we would have. many island-universes that form THE Universe. each island_universe is composed of thousands of galaxies.
so the God of God created a reality. In effect The Universe. And Ayise created another island-universe with it's own galaxies, each galaxy with it's own solar sytems, and each system with it's diverse attendants planets. at the center of the Universe of Sennadar, there's the i-universeof Sennadar. neart it's center the Galaxy of Sennadar, near the hub of tha Galaxy, the Sonnadar's Sun. And orbiting that most particular of suns, the world of Sennadar. the Capital so to speak of The universe. I nearly sprained my brain there, and to think that Fel will probably say he mistyped or something...Anyway, that could be an explanation. and it also explains the fact that you move to another dimension to go to pyrosia. but there are also dimensions within a universe. other kind of dimensions so to speak. that would explain where Tarrin's mother go when she dimension-travel. as for planes., there are the Greater planes, like Concordant opposition, or the elementals planes, and there are planes situated inside dimensions. if it's true that a prime God is forbidden to leave the Universe of Sennadar because of their power, their home plane must be inside the Universe, since that's where their true self is and where they are the most powerfull. So there are u and us, d and ds, and p and ps. the BigBoss himsel, the G of gs created The Universe, but It could be better to say he created The Dimension, to stop the confusion.  8)
Another well built castle....Fel don't demolish too much lol

[Were_Fan]

<snip>
We know that in the real world there's the Universe. which represents pratically all of existence. and Astrophysicians have shown, there are islands-universes. So at the macrocospic scale we would have. many island-universes that form THE Universe. each island_universe is composed of thousands of galaxies.
<snip>

so the God of God created a reality. In effect The Universe. And Ayise created another island-universe with it's own galaxies, each galaxy with it's own solar sytems, and each system with it's diverse attendants planets. at the center of the Universe of Sennadar, there's the i-universeof Sennadar. neart it's center the Galaxy of Sennadar, near the hub of tha Galaxy, the Sonnadar's Sun. And orbiting that most particular of suns, the world of Sennadar. the Capital so to speak of The universe. I nearly sprained my brain there, and to think that Fel will probably say he mistyped or something...Anyway, that could be an explanation. and it also explains the fact that you move to another dimension to go to pyrosia. but there are also dimensions within a universe. other kind of dimensions so to speak. that would explain where Tarrin's mother go when she dimension-travel. as for planes., there are the Greater planes, like Concordant opposition, or the elementals planes, and there are planes situated inside dimensions. if it's true that a prime God is forbidden to leave the Universe of Sennadar because of their power, their home plane must be inside the Universe, since that's where their true self is and where they are the most powerfull. So there are u and us, d and ds, and p and ps. the BigBoss himsel, the G of gs created The Universe, but It could be better to say he created The Dimension, to stop the confusion.
Another well built castle....Fel don't demolish too much lol
<snip>

  There may be "islands" of galaxies but they are all in the one universe that we can perceive.  Fel's Tarrin stories sometimes seem to refer to single worlds such as Sennadar and Pyrosia as universes.  However, I always rember that I am reading fantasy fiction and I don't mind when the meaning of words get "bent" during the telling of a great tale.

  If you think about it, the "gods" of Sennadar are rather weak in the grand scheme of things.  There are extimated to be more than 200 BILLION stars in our real world Milky Way galaxy alone.  Some estimates are as high as 400 billion.  However,  Niami mentions it would be a bit of a strain to have 100 "conversations" at a time when she is rounding up an army to search for the sword pieces and kill demons on Pyrosia.  Do the "gods" ignore everything except for one world in each universe?

 I am not going to lose any sleep over this great mystery while reading a great story.  Sit back and enjoy a great work of fiction.

 For further reading on the true nature of the "real world" universe, follow the link to the Hubble Deep Field pictures.  The link will show an area about 1/10 the diameter of the moon in what appears from the ground to be relatively empty.  There are an estimated 10,000 galaxies in the "empty" area picture.

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsde ... s/2004/07/

  Fel's tale takes place in an alternate universe where the rules may be drastically different.  Perhaps each "universe" is a bubble with a planet, moon(s) and a sun surrounded by a hollow sphere upon which glowing stars are painted.
--
Were_Fan

[Saetan]

disclaimer: this is how I see things, not necessarily how fel  views them, so I may have a poor outlook on it.

actually, in this case one can talk of multiple universes . . . the god of gods vcreated the multiverse, which consists of a lot of universes (uni= one or single, multi= many).

multiverse is a word used by some authors in their stories to describe multiple universes, where usually, one or more deities have created or oversee their own reality.  so, in this case, the god of gods created the multiverse, including a good number of universes, and then created deities to oversee those universes.  those deities also created their own universes within this universe, their 'planes' . . .

as I'm tired, I'll stop there and go to sleep

[Edengrave]

 I am not going to lose any sleep over this great mystery while reading a great story. Sit back and enjoy a great work of fiction.

Fel's tale takes place in an alternate universe where the rules may be drastically different. Perhaps each "universe" is a bubble with a planet, moon(s) and a sun surrounded by a hollow sphere upon which glowing stars are painted.
--
Were_Fan

Interestiing Post Were_Fan...
The idea that each universe is a  small, solar-system bubble occured to me too. but so far, Fel has paid a lot of respect to the laws of physics, and instead of rewriting them when convenient, he has made magic work around it.
I'm not completely sure, but I think an universe that small, would have completely different physics.*

But of course, you are perfectly right. I don't really care about those mysteries to say the truth. I just enjoy analysing stuff, and as I said before it's a way for me to pass the time waiting for the next gem from Fel. I am perfectly happy enjoying the read, without stressing my brain trying to anticipate Tarrin.

As a side note though, when a book reach cult status, or at least has a large number of followers, speculation for the sake of speculation abound. the fans have to talk, guess, hope, despair, wonder.
You can probably overanalyse everything lol If you take the cosmology analysis to most fantasy books out there, something is going to break down sooner or later. Especially those dealing with creation. but Fel's books are so coherant, that I doubt anything is left to chance. . I just have too see what lies under every rock, if you take the next logical step. The funny thing, is that I am holding back. If I posted everything I wanted to post, I would be the only one talking around here  :)

[Shadowhawk]

Edengrave, maybe we could encourage you to make appereance on IRC, [url=irc://irc.newnet.net/sennadar]#sennadar on irc.newnet.net[/url] (NewNET, channel <tt>#sennadar</tt>) for live on-line discussion? There are many of us present there, but there always are a few users... sometimes even awake