Earth Bond Chapter 18 Discussion (spoilers!)

[ANTIcarrot]

As a quick exercise...
4x 'Kuznetsov' carriers = 6,000
4x Type 071 LPD = 3,600
7x Type 072 LST = 1,400
11x Type 072II LST = 4,250
12x Type 072III = 4,500
13 (?) x Type 073 LSM = 2,340
20 x Type 074 LSM = 5,000
5x Qiongsha class = 2,000
Total crew and soldiers: 29,090

Which means China has to find a mere 11 Titanic scale cruise liners to make up the 70,910 shortfall. My my, China has been rather busy!

And to reiterate an earlier point, sinking enemy warships and then pilfering from them is generally forbidden under international law; under the subsection about graverobbing. Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, and America are all pretty obliged to complain when it's noticed that bits of ship are being stolen by someone who doesn't show up on sonar.

This would of course be to America's advantage. (A disaproving international community means a longer period of a America's secret monopoly on magic.) I wonder if they will be cynical enough to actually encourage the dragons?

[rjbrierly]

its not grave robbing because the way the dragons have it planned no one is going to die. However you are right that there is international law about profiting from a government owned ship being salvaged. Thats one of the reasons that the Spanish government has won a couple of court cases against salvagers who have found Spanish treasure ships. But it really does not matter as long as the dragon nation is not recognized as anything close to a nation-company-people, as the world governments can not argue people breaking the law when they won't give them recognition.

[Lochar]

Which means it works well towards getting the dragons what they want.

"If you're going to continue to not recognize us as sentient, then you might as well begin legal proceedings against the coral that builds on the ships as well."

"Oh, we're considered sentient now? You can't pass a law and then apply it retroactively. We're no longer scavenging ships. Want to pay us to raise them for you?"

[rjbrierly]

to compete with the Complaints about grave robbing there can be complaints about invading a souvourn territory. And even better the dragons can make this complaint on the internet much louder then the grave robbing accusations after all the dragons don't have to be recognized by the world governments to make this claim, just the people on the streets. and I am willing to bet with a few hacks into the Chinese systems and placing the right complaints in the right Asian countries I could see a big blow to the Chinese government and military on the political front which will then cause even more problems when it was the Chinese that caused economic disaster because of a trumped up accusation against the USA

and yes I know I can't spell

[Wiz]

Wouldn't capturing a hostile enemy's ship be considered spoils of war?

[SYED]

SO the general plan is to force the ships to have no choice but to turn back. I cant remember how many ships are being sent, but say the ED sink the largest and those with the most cargo, then the smallest ships will be faced with a difficult decision. They would have to rescue all the ships crew of the task force. So any remaining ships would be heavily over crowded and would not have the supplies necessary for everyone. Also if the smallest ships are left intact, then the only way to receive supplies would be limited air lift and drops into the oceans. They could potentially leave sailors on a habitual island, but they simply don't have the supplies to do so.
If the little ships propellers are also crippled, the navy would focus more on getting those men supplies and getting them home, than invading. The goal is to tie up their logistics.
What ever happens, if they mess with the navigation just enough, then the Chinese would misplace the sunken vessels, how can they claim theft when they cant say where the ships were. especially if the dragons and america has proof that the ships were else where.
The air scout, would they send drones or actual planes. Their base computers can be hacked, but what about the aircraft sensors, can they be hacked and compromised. The air dragons could mess with the pilots senses. So if both computers and pilot are thinking there is an emergency, they would be forced to eject and so the planes goes down, with no fatalities.

Eventually the Chinese would send as many of their subs as they could to protect their ships. Those would be difficult to deal with, without killing lots. Simple propeller damage would be best. The department must know the near current of all naval vessels, so why nott get the WD to damage them just enough to push back the time ttable.

Wont some of the sky dragons need to get magically charged up as well?

[rjbrierly]

Wouldn't capturing a hostile enemy's ship be considered spoils of war?

It would not be considered a captured ship if it was sunk. It would be considered salvage. Different rules apply.

one of the reasons that the American spy services had to be sneaky when they tried to raise a sunken Russian sub.

[tereszcz]

Possession 9/10th's of the law? Who is going to argue with a dragon?

[hoppy]

Wouldn't capturing a hostile enemy's ship be considered spoils of war?

It would not be considered a captured ship if it was sunk. It would be considered salvage. Different rules apply.

one of the reasons that the American spy services had to be sneaky when they tried to raise a sunken Russian sub.

There is the fact that water dragons live and work in the water and that hopefully the dragons will have declared war by then. One idea would be to put out buoy's transmitting that traveling beyond this point or within a certain distance of the shore without permission would be considered a act of war. Sending a declaration to the UN and various countries would help to.
On another point sinking a ship the way Kel wants to may or may not kill people depending on how well the Chinese have drilled and whether anyone gets trapped by the captains damage control.

[ANTIcarrot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_grave
This is an example of a war grave:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Arizon ... ipwreck%29
It's also what happens when you rip open a ship from stem to sturn, as the dragons have plainly stated they intend to do.

Which means it works well towards getting the dragons what they want.

Everything in Fel's stories almost always works towards getting the main characters what they want. With the sole exception of when he's introducing a new challenge for them, or give them something they didn't know they wanted.

Fel has hinted several times that the EDs, and other dragons, have a fall coming which is going to hit them upside the head like a two by four. At this point I've honestly no idea whether he's going to do this or not. But this story will be all for the worse if he doesn't.

[GBLW]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Arizon ... ipwreck%29
It's also what happens when you rip open a ship from stem to sturn, as the dragons have plainly stated they intend to do.

No, not really! Slicing a narrow hole, say 15 - 20% greater than the capabilities of the bilge pumping facilities on an aircraft carrier, with that hole well below the water line and running from stem to stern on a vessel would sink the vessel quickly, but not so quickly that she could not be evacuated. Of course that would also leave time for many planes to fly away and it would also allow time for the executive aboard ship to order the destruction of any vital or sensitive equipment on board. Therefore a larger hole might be chosen and as such 'some' loss of life is to be expected, then if the ship was salvaged by the Dragons, a 'desecration of the dead' or 'desecration of a military grave site' charge might be filed in the international courts.

Now on that front, in order to pursue a suit of 'desecration of the dead' the party being sued must have some form of legal identity - which is really all the Dragons need. Actually in order to declare the Dragons capable of being sued or prosecuted in any way, they would have to be recognized as sentient beings, because you cannot sue animals! However, if the Dragons are recognized as a legal entity, that would make the invasion efforts of the Chinese ILLEGAL under international law.

(Edit)
Sorry, in the situation I mentioned, it wouldn't be an illegal attack since the Chinese attack would have happened previous to the recognition of the Dragons as sentient beings, but it could still be classed as a case of unprovoked aggression by the Chinese. However, since the Dragons at that point of time wouldn't have been recognized as legal entities or even sentient beings by the International Community, they would have been 'outside' International law, so they couldn't be charged. Any way I work it out, the Dragons gain and the Chinese lose.

[SYED]

If the WD get ED advise, they can get blue prints of the ships. THey would make holes in compartments that would force sailors to head to the deck, and not meet any obstructions. THey might be able to slow down the sinking by closing bulk heads, but with enough holes they would be forced to evacuate. If they aim for well travelled areas, or important, they would be forced to leave the ship, as they could no longer function.
Unless the WD use magic to help ensure all sailors can escape, then there will be deaths. How hard is it to heal the recently drowned?

[ANTIcarrot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Arizon ... ipwreck%29
It's also what happens when you rip open a ship from stem to sturn, as the dragons have plainly stated they intend to do.

No, not really! Slicing a narrow hole, say 15 - 20% greater than the capabilities of the bilge pumping facilities on an aircraft carrier, with that hole well below the water line and running from stem to stern on a vessel would sink the vessel quickly, but not so quickly that she could not be evacuated.

Go watch Titanic again. Where this happens on screen. There is no such things as a area of the ship below the waterline that will (A) sink the ship if flooded and (B) has no people inside. If you want to get really creative, we can also add requirement (C) that the captain won't ordered sealed (with sailors trapped inside) in order to save the ship. Crimson Tide is another film which shows what really happens when ships start to leak badly. In both cases pay close attention to what actually happens to some of the sailors in the flooding compartments. What the dragons are planning will kill people. The fact that they're going in with the attitude that this is going to be a cake walk, means they'll probably kill lots of people.

Fel esentially has the choice to nerf china's technology, which includes rescue/damage-control technology (which means dead sailors) or he doesn't, which means dead dragons (and huge numbers of dead sailors!) when they learn that chinese can in fact track dead-space underwater (like all navies can since the 80s) and that sea-dragons are in fact the second fastest thing in the ocean. Or he could put in some kind of throwaway line about how the dragons studied very hard, and so they didn't kill anyone, but that would be the incredibly incompetent author approach.

Now on that front, in order to pursue a suit of 'desecration of the dead' the party being sued must have some form of legal identity

No. If the dragons are caught stealing from a warship that sunk with sailors on board, they instantly face international condemnation from all nations with a military naval tradition. Pretty much everyone in the G8. THe people they'd like to trade with.

And it's not really a case of if, but when this happens. The Dragons murdered the citizens of china. (And of other countries?) They hack everyone's computer networks. They developed software weapons of mass destruction. They steal nuclear fuel. They steal technology. And they plan to steal priceless and irriplacable national treasures from china, and all of humanity. They don't respect anyone, and let's be completely honest: They're arragent as hell, think every other nation on the planet is their personal bitch, and they're not going to stop. Once they go public their ability to hide their actions and history will be significantly damaged. Soon or later other nations will notice, they'll eventually find something they really dislike, and then the dragons will finally have to face some consiquences for their actions. And gosh darn it, but won't that just be the end of the world?

[SYED]

Do the water dragons have power enough to simply flood, freeze or burst the water pipes in the ship? Add that to a broken propellar and engines, that they may be forced to abandon ship.

With no motion, and no water or plumbing they would have to regroup.

[rjbrierly]

anticarrot is right of course, but he misses a few very important pieces of information. All nations kill, steal and hack, so if the humans start to condemn the dragons they would also have to condemn china and the usa as well. just because assassination is illegal, it does not mean that it does not happen. all it would take is a "botched" snatch.