Shadow Walker Chapter 2 (Spoilers*)

[boballab]

Ok chapter 2 is here now. What do you all think Kyven's foreboding really means? Seems to stright forward for Fel to make it an unknown Arcan getting the short end of the stick being a decoy.

And

What is the real story behind that supersized perfect crystal? Do you really think one of the Haven shaman acutally made it or was it obtained by other means?

[NSC]

I don't understand why Clover isn't too concerned about that large perfect crystal. When it's mentioned to her, she just blows it off. Seems to me that she should be more interested in it.

[expedient]

I think that the Loremasters are checking out Kyven. The second Loremaster could have been using a more sophisticated truth/emotion device to read the veracity of Kyven’s statements.

If so, I’d say the results would be inconclusive. Still I expect he will be detained at some point for extensive questioning.

The large green crystal may have been recovered years previously not as part of the current Arcan purchases. It certainly should be of interest but what can they do?

--

As to the foreboding, there is still much uncertainty as to the Loremasters exact plans and what surprises they might spring. Alliances, weapons, tools; any one of which could change the balance.

I think the “trap” would be a strategic error as it reveals an organized resistance in the west. I could quote Sun Tzu, or some such, about engaging an opponent when you don’t know their full capabilities: generally bad idea. The Loreguard have acted as peacekeepers so far, keeping their war waging equipment secret. The Arcan forces need to wait longer yet.

Many smaller Arcan escapes across Noraam would be more effective at providing chaos and confusion, with the Masked directing escapees North, West and South West.

--

The Loremasters seem to already be taking possession of all the crystal supplies from the brokers, the banks will likely also be stripped followed by smaller private vaults soon after.

Their plans have been in place for quite some time and everyone else is playing catch-up.

I suspect that the Loreguard with their near stranglehold on the black crystals and alchemical research could decimate most armies with relatively small forces. That leaves the Arcans with the support of the Shaman as their only real threat. Flaur and a couple of other nations will only slow them some.

The Briton rifle, with its range and fast reload, demonstrates that tactics and weapons are available that can challenge the power of alchemical devices. If only they can be brought to bear in time to provide strong resistance.

[Mad Monk]

for a long-range weapon like the rifle, its major advantage would be neutralised by attacks when range was not an issue, like ambushes, night attacks or possibly in forests. Arcans would be especially good at eliminating scouts, for example.

The other major difference in cartrage technology seems to be missed - rate of fire. It takes about a minute to load a muzzel loader, and it is not very accurate. Indeed, a longbow can shoot about 12 accurate arrows in the same time, over a longer range - 2-300 feet with heavy armour penetrating "war arrows" but it takes a lifetime to master such a bow. Lighter "flight arrows" can go much further, probably double that, and can be used to disrupt formations. They are unlikely to kill, but would injure people.

With cartrages, you can shoot rapidly, and it would not take much thinking to develop a machine gun of some sort.

Even so, when you are faced with people fighting for their freedom, you may easily run out of bullets, no matter your techical superiority. Think of the Battle of Isandlwana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana portrayed in the film "Zulu Dawn" or the siege of Khartoum

[dellstart]

for a long-range weapon like the rifle, its major advantage would be neutralised by attacks when range was not an issue, like ambushes, night attacks or possibly in forests. Arcans would be especially good at eliminating scouts, for example.

The other major difference in cartrage technology seems to be missed - rate of fire. It takes about a minute to load a muzzel loader, and it is not very accurate. Indeed, a longbow can shoot about 12 accurate arrows in the same time, over a longer range - 2-300 feet with heavy armour penetrating "war arrows" but it takes a lifetime to master such a bow. Lighter "flight arrows" can go much further, probably double that, and can be used to disrupt formations. They are unlikely to kill, but would injure people.

With cartrages, you can shoot rapidly, and it would not take much thinking to develop a machine gun of some sort.

Even so, when you are faced with people fighting for their freedom, you may easily run out of bullets, no matter your techical superiority. Think of the Battle of Isandlwana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana portrayed in the film "Zulu Dawn" or the siege of Khartoum

Kool as usual mad monk.

so our boy is going to turn into a sniper as well. wicked .

[ANTIcarrot]

I think that the Loremasters are checking out Kyven. The second Loremaster could have been using a more sophisticated truth/emotion device to read the veracity of Kyven’s statements.

Or they may be testing him for other reasons. The loremasters want to build a sophisticated magical machine, remember? They need skilled craftsmen at the top of their game to do so. Possibly the top 0.1% of the crystal cutters in the city? Kyven easily falls into that category.

keeping their war waging equipment secret. The Arcan forces need to wait longer yet.

Speaking of which, if a bunch of arcans can slap together a small scale ammunition factory in their spare time, could they start building their own guns if they managed to send a few back to their home base?

If magic can be out ranged by rifles then magic isn't worth that much in military circles. At least not directly. Where magic would be really useful is in magical healing. Traditionally, disease kills more people than bullets and swords. The question is how many crystals are the loremasters willing to devote to 'dull boring' activities like logistics. And how willing the arcans are to use crystals, and thus weaken their dependence on the spirits and shamans. It makes military sense to use crystal devices and technology to reduce the workload on spirits and shamans. But that comes with suggestions of decentralisation that might not sit well with the arcan mindset.

Isandlwana was a case of bad tactics and lack of extreme weather testing. The movie was inaccurate. The soldiers were strung out too far apart, smoke obscured their view, and the guns jammed. But yes. Technology doesn't guarantee any given outcome.

Unless the technology you're building is a Evil Crystal Maker (TM). Then the outcome is set in stone.

[Fel]

Actually, one of the things that the Shaman CAN do is mass produce technological items, and they intend to do so.

The spirits want those Briton rifles, and they're sending Clover to get them. With those rifles, the Shaman can use magic to produce exact duplicates of the parts, then their own gunsmiths can assemble them.

It has a twofold purpose; keep the rifles out of the hands of the Loreguard, and provide both instant weapons for the Arcans as well as models to use to produce their own.

The only snag they're going to hit is with the powder. Briton doesn't use standard gunpowder, they use a more powerful smokeless powder. The Shaman are going to have to puzzle out the recipe before they can produce that.

[boballab]

I believe ANTIcarrot is on the right track about the Loremasters aims dealing with Kyven. Remember the Loremaster believe that they can get the ancient device to make crystals for them. Second the Loremasters have their own crystalcutters but might not have anyone close to Kyvens skill in cutting crystals. Third even with their own in house cutters the Loremasters do not have enough now to cut all the crystals they have(as seen by them having a set rate set with the cutters guild). When you take all that into account it would make sense that they would want to lock up the services of the best cutters, as well as have them join their organization. They are moving toward taking contral of Noraam and if they had control of the vast majority of crystals, then it follows that the vast majority of alchemists and cutters would have to join their organization or fight over the scraps. Of course we know what would really happen with that ancient machine, they don't, but they would plan for what they believe will happen.

As the magic weapons not being that important. Remember the Britons didn't have access to a lot of crystals so they kept inovating past the simple musket. Where as in Noraam they were able to make Fire and Shockrods which until the advent of the Briton rifle was comprable to the musket. Remember the Noraam musket is not rifled so it's accuracy over distance sucks. Where the Shockrod has the advantage over the musket is that there is no reloading time between shots. So you can see a need for them: massed musket fire over a greater distance, reload, fire again then pull shockrods, fire them until forces close or the crystal dies, pull swords and hack. Sort of like the old Roman style: Thow pila's, throw another, pull sword, set shield and start hacking. Also think of the old napoleonic method: Troops mass. One side fires and starts to advance. The other fires, reloads, fires, possible has time for another volley, then its time to set bayonets. It was repeating firearms that did away with that tatic since the reload time was so small and with rifled barrels massed ained fire destroyed those type of forces. You will see the same thing in Noraam. An Army of 5,000 armed with briton rifles, with the right terrain could decimate a much larger force using napoleonic tactics.

[kabalman2000]

I sort of wonder why the Arcans (with a virtually unlimited supply of crystals) don't make a crystal powered rifle. It has the advantages of throwing a projectile a long distance and not requiring a scarce supply of gun powder, casings, or primers, just bullets.

Even if they could not use the crystals as a direct replacement for the gun powder thrust, they could use them to compress air and use that for thrust. The first guns were compressed air weapons and, even into the 1800's, compressed air weapons were produced. Lewis and Clark took one on their little jaunt. They have a lot of advantages.

[miraborn]

I sort of wonder why the Arcans (with a virtually unlimited supply of crystals) don't make a crystal powered rifle. It has the advantages of throwing a projectile a long distance and not requiring a scarce supply of gun powder, casings, or primers, just bullets.

Even if they could not use the crystals as a direct replacement for the gun powder thrust, they could use them to compress air and use that for thrust. The first guns were compressed air weapons and, even into the 1800's, compressed air weapons were produced. Lewis and Clark took one on their little jaunt. They have a lot of advantages.

The first thing that comes to mind is that the Arcans would have to Think of doing that. I'm sure they will be trying to figure out a way to make the rifles work without a supply of smokeless powder... and I'm also pretty sure someone will try to think of an alchemical or magical way of doing it... but the concept of using made crystals to do that just seems a little out of whack for me as far as the storyline goes. I don't remember seeing Anything alchemical in Haven - they don't have any crystal cutters, and few alchemists to create the tools and set crystals. Just because they have access to crystals, doesn't mean they can be used in anything.

[boballab]

Back in Book 1 it was shown that Haven has Alchemists. Some of the escaped Arcans were from Alchemists that learned the trade by watching the Human alchemists.

. Alchemy was quite present in Haven, since Shaman could make crystals. Arcans like Old Gray back in Atan learned the art of alchemy from their masters and then escaped, and now they were masters of their own alchemy shops, continuing the craft.

What they didn't have was crystal cutters so they had to use raw crystals, but that is not a problem since the only reason to cut a crystal was to get the most out of it despite having flaws. The crystals shamen make are perfect, they don't need to be cut to get their maximum potential.

[ANTIcarrot]

The spirits want those Briton rifles, and they're sending Clover to get them.

You know, I see this, and I can't help but think, "What does god need with a starship?"

Yes, I know they're merely powerful disembodied magical beings that inspire feelings of love and devotion in their beloved followers*, not gods, but still...

If they can't just hop over to England, and watch how the Britons do it, or will not allow themselves to pass this information on, that's a major limitation on what they can do. Or what they are. Or something.

*With at least one notable exception.

[Fel]

The spirits want those Briton rifles, and they're sending Clover to get them.

You know, I see this, and I can't help but think, "What does god need with a starship?"

Yes, I know they're merely powerful disembodied magical beings that inspire feelings of love and devotion in their beloved followers*, not gods, but still...

If they can't just hop over to England, and watch how the Britons do it, or will not allow themselves to pass this information on, that's a major limitation on what they can do.

*With at least one notable exception.

It's not called Spirit Sight for no reason.

Spirits cannot see that which does not live. At all. Ever. (except for one thing: spirits can see active energy sources such as fire...there's always an exception to a rule, you know) The spirits have the same limitation as Shaman, but unlike Shaman, they don't have corporeal eyes, so they have no other way to see. Yes, spirits can make out non-living shapes by the microscopic life that's on it, but they can't see it well enough or with enough precision to do anything intricate.

Spirits also absolutely cannot interact with inorganic matter, even using magic. For spirits, non-living matter simply does not exist. A spirit might know the shape of a firing pin of a Briton rifle, but they cannot use any magic to create it, because it would affect non-living material. The only way a spirit could do this would be to build the pin out of something alive...and that living thing might not appreciate being transformed into a Briton firing pin. It just might very well be fatal at that.

To do anything that deals with inorganic matter, they have to work through a Shaman, who becomes the spirit's tool to reach into the material world.

That's what happens when you don't have a physical body. Spirits can move through the material world, but unless they're dealing with a living thing, they simply cannot interact with it.

[ANTIcarrot]

Spirits cannot see that which does not live.

Does this mean they think arcans are all naked and bald?

Watching someone make something will teach you something even if you can't see exactly what they're doing. (You could learn about the 'resting' periods during bread making for example.) They especially might learn some safety procedures. Maybe that certain chemicals make people ill in a specific way? Or maybe the kinds of places where the raw materials can be found? Cryolite is a material that is invisible underwater. But you can still guess at the shape by watching someone handle it.

Can spirits see clearly enough for lip reading? Facial expressions? Body language? (Shadowfox has understood Kyven's moods very precisely at some points.) She did not express surprise that he was a very competent crystal cutter. What are the limits of spirit sight resolution?

And there are spirit-animals, like the shadowfoxes. (And presumably other species.) If they can jump through shadows, then they should be able to jump into the rafters of the workshops and watch the workers below without being seen. Shadowfox has implied she can communicate some reasonably complex concepts to them.

and that living thing might not appreciate being transformed into a Briton firing pin. It just might very well be fatal at that.

I'm sure cows and chickens don't appreciate being eaten by Clover. Why would they care what a rat or cockroach thought? Or more specifically, why would Shadowfox care?

And, erm (cough) if they can't see dead materials, how do they know what happened during the Breach? If they can't see matter how they have the slightest clue what the humans actually intended? Fine they knew what happened on their side, but that will be an incomplete picture. Seeing dead things is a pretty important prerequisite for understanding technology. If they can't, then they don't, and hence their opinions regarding technology associated with the Breach has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

If the Arcans can't realise this, then that's a fairly important limit on their capacity for creative reasoning.

[Fel]

You forget, hair and nails show up to spirit sight. They're attached to the living body, and even though they're dead, they show up.

Spirits are certainly aware of the physical world, but most of their understanding of it actually comes from Shaman. Over the centuries, they spirits learned about the material world even as the Shaman learned of the spirit world. They had a very vague concept of it beforehand because they DO puzzle some things out from what they can see. They see shapes covered in microscopic life that seem to have no substance to them, and the living things of the material world, which they can see, interact with these strange shapes. Over time, they worked out a good basic concept of the things they can't see.

As far as acuity goes, the eyes of a spirit are just as sharp as a mortal's sight. They can see everything about a living thing we can see about a mundane thing, but they can see more. Spirits are far more attuned to energy, and as such can see the patterns and texture of energy, which gives them much sharper vision that tells them much more than normal sight. Shifts in Kyven's mood show up in his energy pattern, his aura, which the fox can read like a book.

As far as what the spirits know, it's as much as you might think. Ever since they became aware of the material world, they've studied it, and they are rather clever. They can see the microscopic life coating things they can't see, and with time, patience, and study, they came to be aware of the things they can't see and how the mortal living things interact with them. What they didn't know or understand, they learned from the first of the Shaman. Those first Shaman taught the spirits nearly as much as the spirits taught them, exchanging information about their respective worlds which the other didn't comprehend.

As far as the Breach goes, that's about right. When the ancients started experimenting with alchemy, it attracted the spirits. Remember, spirits can see energy, and when an alchemical device is operating, it is inorganic matter infused with magical power, and becomes visible to them. They had no idea what the humans were doing, because the humans themselves really had no idea what they were doing either. When the humans started gaining some control over the power to do some things, the spirits were curious and didn't interfere, curious to see what they were doing and how they would go about it. It was the first experiments in alchemy that caused the spirits to really take an interest in that "other world" which they could see but with which they didn't bother to interact. Up until then, the spirits really didn't CARE about the mortal world.

Then came the Breach. The Breach killed spirits and damaged the spirit world, damage that took centuries to heal (yes, spirits can die). The breach itself was an accident, and caught just about everybody off guard. The spirits sensed that the humans were doing something big, but they were curious to see what they were doing. They let it go on too long before they tried to stop it, and by then it was too late.

It was the Breach that more or less involved spirits in the mortal world, if only as a matter of control. To prevent another Breach, to guide mortals away from doing something that stupid again, the spirits began taking an active interest in the mortal world. They cultivated the appearance of the Shaman, a process that took centuries and careful and subtle encouragement in the way spirits can encourage mortals, and through them, they learned that which they didn't understand. The Shaman don't just speak for the spirits, they are the "window" through which the spirits can see into the material world. From the Shaman the spirits learned about technology, human politics, everything they could only guess at given their limited ability to see into and interact with the material world.

It's not a harsh control, though. The spirits are by nature very curious and compassionate creatures...with a few notable exceptions. They do sincerely care about the humans, and the Arcans, and the mortal world. Centuries of observation added to their contact with the Shaman to instill into the spirits an honest affection for the mortals and a desire to help them, even as their interaction protects themselves from another foolish mortal act that might harm them. What started as a coldly logical plan to control the mortals evolved into the current situation, where spirits are quasi-deities whom are worshipped by Arcans. They've accepted this role with grace, and work both for the harmony of their world and to take care of their "herds" of Arcan followers and the humans.