Fire deaths in australia

[michaelsuave]

Just wanted to say that our thoughts and prayers go out to those effected by the huge fires in australia. I just read that 108 have been killed so far, I'm very sorry to hear it.

~Michael

[Mad Monk]

With you 100%

I hope all the Australian readers are OK. Spec, Dellstart and others.

Stay safe, folks.

[Spec8472]

Thanks - most of the fires are in Victoria: http://google-au.blogspot.com/2009/02/m ... fires.html - so I'm well and truely safe. (>800KM away)

I only know of one forum regular who's in Victoria (via Google Analytics) - so hope they're okay.

Edit: Okay, so there's a few fires in NSW too -- http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/bushfires/

Obviously I was a little out of touch with the news this weekend... heh.

[dellstart]

This is just so so sad. Its fact of life we are going to have bush fires , but surely something can be done to prevent such horrific outbursts.those bastards who did strt them should get shot, no questions asked

[Gabriel]

Sigh... the problem with those who start fires if these were started by some fools, is that they are not interested in the innocent lives that are killed. Shooting them is not going to help. Instead a good old fashion buring at the stake would allow them to feel the horrors of their victums. In fact make it a "live" event. It is times like these that makes us wonder if the civilization of punishment makes sense.

[dellstart]

Sigh... the problem with those who start fires if these were started by some fools, is that they are not interested in the innocent lives that are killed. Shooting them is not going to help. Instead a good old fashion buring at the stake would allow them to feel the horrors of their victums. In fact make it a "live" event. It is times like these that makes us wonder if the civilization of punishment makes sense.

True True. Abolish the death penalty and that what you get.No fear of nothing.

[michaelsuave]

With the death toll up to "EDIT: 170 and rising" so far, and entire towns incinerated, the Austrailian PM is labeling the fire "Mass Murder" because most of the fires seemed to have been set by arsonists, who apparently helped the fire jump containment lines... bastards! Excuse my french, but I hope those buggers got caught in their own fires.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090209/ap_ ... _wildfires

[andy_t_roo]

If the people get caught i'd put them up for 170 consecutive accounts of manslaughter (murder requires intent so basically impossible to get a conviction on).
If person A lights a fire at a time when a) there are already fires burning b) a total fire ban is effect c) there is news about problems with fires all over the place, then it reasonable to expect the fire to cause damage, therefore the person is responsible for the outcomes for his actions.

The standard for a civil action is also quite lower, so i civil action is also not reasonable, however it would be detrimental to society as the person who started the fire would not have the money to answer any judgements, so either the only winners of the suit would be the lawyers, or some insurance company would end up paying, which means that everyone would probably end up with higher premiums (again detrimental, although it amounts to society in general paying to replace what was burnt, which is quite beneficial to the people who lost houses).

I'm not sure what the solution is, but deliberatlly lighting fires in a forrest during at the hottest place on the planet (yes, victoria was hotter than the sahara for a short period of time) is just criminal

Andrew
(posted from Brisbane, Queensland, about 1500km north of the fires)

[Gabriel]

The problem actually lies in their intent, or as they say mens rea. If they had intended to start a fire, then they should bear the responsibilty for it. The principle would be along the lines of the thin skull rule. Afterall if I did hit you without knowing your skull was abnormally thin and it caused your death, I'm responsible.

They should be caught and penalised for this, they may not have the money to pay for all the damages or might even claim to be either underage or mentally unsound. These are just defenses to allow mercy to be shown by the Courts, however in this case where the public has been harmed, there needs to be a strong message sent by the Courts to show that this is not acceptable regardless of their explainations.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but if they get off with a slap of the wrist; there is a certain chance that they will do it again.

[michaelsuave]

Guys, murder is the malicious killing of a human being. Yeah, not premeditated and deliberate, first class which doesn't exist under the common law, but starting a fire or arson is murder in two ways. First, the common law states that if there is a felony murder rule, then a death perpetrated in the commission of a violent felony (Burglary, arson, rape, robbery, kidnapping*) then is considered murder. Second, the mens rea of murder, malice is met by: the intent to kill, the intent to cause serious bodily injury, or an abandon malignant heart (reckless disregard for the risk of serious bodily harm*). So you would have the requisite mental state/intent of malice under abandon maligant heart, and possibly the intent to kill or intent to cause serious bodily injury.

Really, when somebody is killed by an arsonist, it isn't hard to charge them with murder.

[boballab]

I don't know Austrailian law but if it is like in the US then charging the culprits with murder is a foregone conclusion. In most US states they have a law that if a death occurs in the commission of a felony then it is classified as murder. Arson by itself is a felony offense then to top it off if the arsonists then went and caused the fires to jump containment lines which led to deaths you can make a case for premeditation. Everyone knows that wildfires are deadly but to deliberately cause one to jump a containment line in a populated area ranks right up there with a terrorist act IMHO and these people should be dealt with as such.

[Gabriel]

Understand that the death toll is 173 now, I hope they catch the bastards.

[Journeywoman]

I only know of one forum regular who's in Victoria (via Google Analytics) - so hope they're okay.

I am going to put up my hand and assume this is me. Don't panic I'm fine . I was living in Victoria until about 4-5 months ago. I am now living somewhere in the steamy middle. Ie between the fires in the south and the floods of the north. This country is amazing sometimes.

It is such a tradgedy. I have been following the disaster, having an affinity to the area. I don't personally know anyone who has been killed or lost thier possetions but I am praying it doesn't move into Melbourne proper for then I would know a lot. 183 people is tradgedy enough, although they think it may grow to 300+ :S . I hope they catch the bastards that did this.

I am pleased to see how Australia is getting behind this tragedy with donations and volunteering support. It is good to see the Australian spirit come out in this time of need. Not to mention the Australian Government supporting the effort. I am also glad to hear governments and people all over the world are also supporting us. I know it sounds terrible but its nice that it is for Australia for a change. So often I hear of these outpourings going from Australia to some good cause. Its nice to know people appreciate us enough to give support back to us in our time of need .

[shades98]

I have moved from Newcastle down to Melbourne about 6 months ago and now where I live I can actually see the fires and worry about them coming this way but they are still a fair bit away.

[Spec8472]

I only know of one forum regular who's in Victoria (via Google Analytics) - so hope they're okay.

I am going to put up my hand and assume this is me. Don't panic I'm fine . I was living in Victoria until about 4-5 months ago. I am now living somewhere in the steamy middle. Ie between the fires in the south and the floods of the north. This country is amazing sometimes.

Good to hear
And yes, It is an amazing country. It was positively freezing here in Sydney last night with a regular drizzle - winter like weather. Flooding up north, burning down south, and drought everywhere else